Does PADI frown on BP/W over "regular" bc?

[Nick_W]

I didn't really read through the entire thread, admittedly, but felt compelled to respond.




You bring up some valid points - some instructors have not the faintest clue about BP/Ws. But whose fault is that? I would certainly hope that by the time you've reached the instructor level, you'd have the motivation and forethought to take some initiative and figure out how a BP/W functions, with or without help. In all honesty, if an instructor is too much of a tight-ass to learn about them, or whatever the reason, perhaps a better hobby for that instructor would be coloring with crayons (in between the lines please!!).

Setting up a BP/W and adjusting for correct weighting obviously needs to be taught, I COMPLETELY agree with you. I for one am surprised it's not taught in the padi curriculum (but at the same time, I really am not surprised). Nobody is so stupid that they can't understand it - so whats the problem here, really? I think it has more to do with money than it does anything else.


The dive shop I am a DMC at has instituted a policy of encouraging divers to consider a BP/W setup, even for first-time divers - which I was surprised to hear.

BP/W BCDs are superior to the vest style in so many ways and once you recognize all the advantages it becomes very hard to justify selling vest style BCDs to ANYONE with rare exceptions.

I for one, used to avoid hanging out on the shop floor at a specific shop because suggesting to customers, especially OW customers, that a BP/W serves as an excellent platform for ones diving - recreational or otherwise, always led to problems. I've had other divemasters, and even instructors interrupt my advice giving/sales with customers on the shop floor, mid sentence, to "correct" me about the validity of BP/W for recreational diving.

BP/W are not scary looking - but they look uncomfortable, when in fact, they are often more comfortable than some "recreational" vests. I really see that as being the only major problem to over-come from a sales point of view. And it's a fairly trivial problem at that.


What it comes down to is some LDS' being afraid of change, and PADI and other major players hand holding and babysitting these same shops.

"awww, it's okay lds, BP/Ws are scary and dangerous. There there. sell these generic vest style BCDs instead. no tears. no tears"

Shocking that a person who makes a post that makes no sense agrees completely with a person who makes a post that makes no sense.

 

[Friggincold]

First off I dive BP/W in OpenH2O but what it seems like here is that some people think if an instructor doesn't like the BP/W then they don't know what they are doing or something to that effect. Its their decision what they dive and that in itself doesn't make them a bad instructor. I find it easier to start students in a traditional BC for the OpenH2O course cause if they don't want to buy everything at the starty of their experience I can understand that. I don't have access to multiple BP/Ws and it is easier to get in and out of a BC. There are time limits on a course like it or not. Rant over for now.

How do you justify to your students what you wear in open water is different from what you wear in the pool?
It takes time to teach you a bp/w and I don't have time for you? It's easier for me to teach you this way?
I find it funny that some one who is trying to make a buck on educating and selling gear doesn't want to make money selling a bp/w to ther students with a higher profit margin. Taught properly a bp/w takes no more time than a conventional BC. Adjustment can be done quickly if practiced before hand by the teaching instructor. I have seen it done numerous times adjusted and ready to dive in under 2 minutes.

 

[seaducer]

Im not an instructor, but I have been around a few OW classes. I have seen students show up on pool day with brandy new gear and expect the instructor to put it together for them. Not a valid reason to deny anybody, but if it were me, I would throw a vest at them and stay after class to help them set up their own gear. For at least that one class session they wouldn't be allowed to use it as I wouldn't want to take that much time from everybody else to put one student's gear together.

The only valid reason to have all the class in similar gear is because most students don't have any gear, and you got a good deal on a bulk sale.

Personally I think exposing students to different styles of gear is the thing to do if you can. For one thing, once they leave class and go to a shop, they may have a better idea about what everything is and what it does well or not. Secondly, if all your students see is Seaquest Spectrum BCD's, and you think that is the best way for them to learn because now they don't need to worry about Suzies wieght integrated jacket and Bobby's BP/W, how well did you prepare them for that Cozumel trip they are taking the week after you certify them and they see all kinds of stuff?

IMHO the best time to expose them is in the pool, where it is confined and controlled. If you or the shop can't afford to, well that is one thing. Otherwise embrace the variability says me. If you are worried that your students will panic and may drown during their checkouts because they have a back inflate sorry, but you have no buisness bringing them out of the pool then, and you should rethink your teaching style and whether you should even be an instructor. They simply aren't comfortable enough in the water and in scuba to be there, and that is the instructor's job to know it.:no

To the OP, I would say don't buy anything yet, wait to see if you really dig scuba and then make an informed decision based on your own experiences, rather than ours. But if you must buy now, then buy what you want, not what your instructor wants to sell you. Maybe the instructor is right and you will make a mistake, but that mistake is yours to make.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

How do you justify to your students what you wear in open water is different from what you wear in the pool?
It takes time to teach you a bp/w and I don't have time for you? It's easier for me to teach you this way?
I find it funny that some one who is trying to make a buck on educating and selling gear doesn't want to make money selling a bp/w to ther students with a higher profit margin. Taught properly a bp/w takes no more time than a conventional BC. Adjustment can be done quickly if practiced before hand by the teaching instructor. I have seen it done numerous times adjusted and ready to dive in under 2 minutes.

Half the reason shops and instuctors don't start students off in a BP/W is because once the student buys a BP/W they will likely not upgrade to something higher because there is nothing higher to go to. This denies the shop the opportunity to sell multiple next level BC's to the student.

The other half is ignorance.

I've gotten in and out of many different BP/W in the water diving off small boats and kayaks and it's no more difficult than a Jacket, in fact it's easier because of the simplicity.

For some using a jacket bc, the (BC) stands for (Buoy Compensator).

A piece of gear should not compensate for a persons shortcomings in watermanship skills and comfort level.

 

[RayJayJr]

Shocking that a person who makes a post that makes no sense agrees completely with a person who makes a post that makes no sense.

Perhaps I wasn't clear - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I was 'agreeing' with a couple of the points he made because I'm an empathetic person. I don't agree with what he says entirely, but I'm trying to take something postive out of what hes saying in an effort to find common ground and not treat this discussion akin to the way a junior high student might.

• BP/W technology has a learning curve, like anything else, and absolutely should be taught in introductory diving cirriculum.
  
• Teachers ultimately hold all responsibility for keeping up to date with equipment tech, and subsequently, their use of it - padi cirriculum or not, it's nothing short of disappointing that some instructors know so little about the tech, and that a small minority are even unwilling to learn it in the face of such overwhelming emperical proof.
  
• Ultimately, it can be said that the reason the technology hasn't seen the light of day outside of tech-rec, cave, and other serious endevours is because of the beaucracy at organizations like PADI and so fourth - and that it has little to nothing to do with that technologies ability to deliver results.
  
• The reason some LDS don't encourage divers to use BP/W is for the same reasons ZKY has mentioned. It's about money, not what's best for the diver.

 

[fisherdvm]

Dude, I'm really not trying to be mean or anything, but this post really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I learn alot from your constructive criticisms, but not too much from here. The implications you gave on your other posts, Nick, is that you are a scuba instructor. As an instructor, I guess your goal is to make sure that your student is familiar with all gears - especially rental gears (usually jacket BCD with nonintegrated weight belts. As I understand, the skills I've mentioned, all required the use of a weight belt, irregardless of what gears you chose to wear to your class. If this is not true, then all the statements I've made doesn't make sense. But a good instructor would like his student's to be aware of all gears, and all configurations - especially in rescue class.

What I meant is, in the flow of the class, some of the required skills for OW training is:

1. Weight belt removal on the surface - probably easy to do with a BP/W setup, just have to get the belt out past the crotch strap.

2. Weight belt replacement on the surface - hard to do for a beginner with a jacket, but might be harder to do with a crotch strap and BP/W. I imagine you'd have to undo the crotch strap, put on the belt, and reapply the strap.

3. Same 2 skills underwater, same issues.

4. BC removal underwater and above water. At least, my personal experience, is it is a little harder with the BP/W. With a drysuit, I really needed help getting the hard tight strap over my prominent deflate valve. The BC jackets I've tried usually has a shoulder release or loose enough to fit over my drysuit valve. With a wetsuit or none at all, it might not be much harder than a regular BC, except that you don't have the shoulder release and quick strap adjustment.

5. Weighting issues - I guess it would only be a problem is the student with a thick wetsuit might be underweighted as he shifted 8 lbs of weight to his jacket. This is the same issue as a weight integrated BC. If he is not careful, he might float upward with a reg in his mouth, and has to drag himself back to the bc to complete the underwater BC removal and replacement task. But you are likely correct, this is likely a non-issue, as 8 lbs of bouayncy is not much of a force to overcome ... Unless one was significantly underweighted or wearing a weight integrated BP/W setup.

I am sorry if I am wrong about my concerns.... I just see them as an inconvenience when you have a pool full of students that can barely retrieve a lost reg, or barely able to clear their mask... Just additional information or task overloading - both to the student and the instructors (who might not be familiar with the BP/W setup).

So please, can you give some constructive criticisms? Or am I too dumb to understand your logics?

 

[fisherdvm]

I think back to the original statement, if you read PADI's encyclopedia - there is inherent bias against using the BP/W in recreational diving in their description of the history of the BCD. I took the equipment "specialty" one day class, and the instructor, who taught PADI's tech deep diving class, and is very experienced (trained from the old days), but yet, still gave some inaccurate information about the wing/plate setup (he said that the holes in the plates are to decrease the weight of the plate - yeh, right?) In the sameway, eventhough I have a BP/W setup, I am probably giving some wrong information on the matter - just because I have not done enough diving with it.

What I am trying to say is, even on the tech side of PADI, some instructor use non-traditional BP/W setups (weight harnesses, padded plate covers, extra adjustment straps, etc), that allow them to do their dives - and still not be familiar with the plain uncomplicated BP/W setups... The instructor I was talking about has a pocket in his BC that he inserts the plate. The rig is not attached to the plate. Just because you do "tech" diving, does not mean that you are fully familiar with how the DIR folks are diving.

 

[pir8]

How do you justify to your students what you wear in open water is different from what you wear in the pool?
It takes time to teach you a bp/w and I don't have time for you? It's easier for me to teach you this way?
I find it funny that some one who is trying to make a buck on educating and selling gear doesn't want to make money selling a bp/w to ther students with a higher profit margin. Taught properly a bp/w takes no more time than a conventional BC. Adjustment can be done quickly if practiced before hand by the teaching instructor. I have seen it done numerous times adjusted and ready to dive in under 2 minutes.

Not everyone wants to dive a BP/W just cause you think its the greatest thing since sliced bread. I have to teach for some people that are going to be renting gear on vacation so its more of a vanilla class. If they want to move on afterward then they can but they learned generic first. At least my way they are exposed to various systems. By the way it isn't all about the money!

 

[fisherdvm]

I honestly like my jacket BCD with wings. I like the simple weight integration, pockets where I've stowed my reel and SMB, scissor, mirrow, backup light, and even my fish ID card. I don't have to worry about having pockets installed on my wetsuit ... Just jump in and dive, and no dangles to get caught. I've not invested in pockets yet to make my BP/W easy to use... But it will happen before I take the DIR fundies this year.

 

[Nick_W]

Perhaps I wasn't clear - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I was 'agreeing' with a couple of the points he made because I'm an empathetic person. I don't agree with what he says entirely, but I'm trying to take something postive out of what hes saying in an effort to find common ground and not treat this discussion akin to the way a junior high student might.

• BP/W technology has a learning curve, like anything else, and absolutely should be taught in introductory diving cirriculum.

• 
  
  True.
  
  

  [*]Teachers ultimately hold all responsibility for keeping up to date with equipment tech, and subsequently, their use of it - padi cirriculum or not, it's nothing short of disappointing that some instructors know so little about the tech, and that a small minority are even unwilling to learn it in the face of such overwhelming emperical proof.

  
  Emperical proof of what? There is not emperical proof that the BP/W is a superior "technology" if that is where you'er going with this. Some prefer it, some don't. I'm not going to knock an instructor for not prefering it.
  
  
  

  [*]Ultimately, it can be said that the reason the technology hasn't seen the light of day outside of tech-rec, cave, and other serious endevours is because of the beaucracy at organizations like PADI and so fourth - and that it has little to nothing to do with that technologies ability to deliver results.

  
  That couldn't be more wrong. I'm sure there is a small amount of conspiracy, but more than anything the jacket is just cheaper, more widely available and used at every dive spot in the world. That's why it is the BC most classes use.
  
  

  [*]The reason some LDS don't encourage divers to use BP/W is for the same reasons ZKY has mentioned. It's about money, not what's best for the diver.

I'm sure there are some LDS out there that do this, but I doubt that is the primary reason.

I learn alot from your constructive criticisms, but not too much from here. The implications you gave on your other posts, Nick, is that you are a scuba instructor. As an instructor, I guess your goal is to make sure that your student is familiar with all gears - especially rental gears (usually jacket BCD with nonintegrated weight belts. As I understand, the skills I've mentioned, all required the use of a weight belt, irregardless of what gears you chose to wear to your class. If this is not true, then all the statements I've made doesn't make sense. But a good instructor would like his student's to be aware of all gears, and all configurations - especially in rescue class.

What I meant is, in the flow of the class, some of the required skills for OW training is:

1. Weight belt removal on the surface - probably easy to do with a BP/W setup, just have to get the belt out past the crotch strap.

2. Weight belt replacement on the surface - hard to do for a beginner with a jacket, but might be harder to do with a crotch strap and BP/W. I imagine you'd have to undo the crotch strap, put on the belt, and reapply the strap.

3. Same 2 skills underwater, same issues.

4. BC removal underwater and above water. At least, my personal experience, is it is a little harder with the BP/W. With a drysuit, I really needed help getting the hard tight strap over my prominent deflate valve. The BC jackets I've tried usually has a shoulder release or loose enough to fit over my drysuit valve. With a wetsuit or none at all, it might not be much harder than a regular BC, except that you don't have the shoulder release and quick strap adjustment.

5. Weighting issues - I guess it would only be a problem is the student with a thick wetsuit might be underweighted as he shifted 8 lbs of weight to his jacket. This is the same issue as a weight integrated BC. If he is not careful, he might float upward with a reg in his mouth, and has to drag himself back to the bc to complete the underwater BC removal and replacement task. But you are likely correct, this is likely a non-issue, as 8 lbs of bouayncy is not much of a force to overcome ... Unless one was significantly underweighted or wearing a weight integrated BP/W setup.

I am sorry if I am wrong about my concerns.... I just see them as an inconvenience when you have a pool full of students that can barely retrieve a lost reg, or barely able to clear their mask... Just additional information or task overloading - both to the student and the instructors (who might not be familiar with the BP/W setup).

So please, can you give some constructive criticisms? Or am I too dumb to understand your logics?

Well, the primary problem I had with your post is your assumption that an instructor who is not familiar with a BP/W would be using that rig in a class. While I'm sure it is possible for that to happen, that would (I hope) be the exception, not the rule.

As for weighting, yes, it could be a problem if people aren't properly weighted but again, I like to make sure people are properly weighted in my class.

As for whether or not some skills may be harder with a BP/W. You may be right, but some skills are easier. And just because something is hard doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.