Going from BP-wing to Jacket BCD ...

[Sas]

Frankly, in terms of adjustment, I think that a BP/w has it all over a BC.

Yea it's really not hard to adjust a BP/W, takes a few minutes at most (or no more than an hour if you are making a harness from scratch). Some might be harder to adjust (friend had a lot of trouble with a borrowed BP/W that had a 'comfort harness') but this also applies to some BCs. My old Ladyhawk took me ages to setup and then it would loosen up during a dive - never had this issue with a BP/W.

I've seen HEAPS of new divers have to be shown how to set up their BCs to fit them. I've also seen new divers have to be shown how to make and/or adjust the harness on a BP/W. With the BP/W though, with a basic harness, it can be adjusted to a wider range of sizes and shapes than a jacket/backinflate BC can be.

Hence why I am interested to hear from Valhalla as to why exactly adjusting a BP/W is beyond the ability of a new diver as it certainly does not match my own experience and why I would not consider it to be 'fact' but merely opinion.

 

[Scott L]

Frankly, in terms of adjustment, I think that a BP/w has it all over a BC.

I agree with you 100%. I am loving life after my switch 2 years ago but valid or not the occasional recreational diver is not inclined to monkey with adjustments with exposure suit changes, etc. Even with the tremendous push on this board BP/wings as I stated earlier only comprise 1% of the market as neither consumer or retail desires to deal with the custom fitting...

 

[Sas]

I agree with you 100%. I am loving life after my switch 2 years ago but valid or not the occasional recreational diver is not inclined to monkey with adjustments with exposure suit changes, etc. Even with the tremdous push on this board BP/wings as I stated earlier only comprise 1% of the market as neither consumer or retail desires to deal with the custom fitting...

That is not what you said though: "A BP/Wing is great but adjusting, etc. is too much to ask of a new diver..."

It's not too much to ask. People can do it if they want, it's not beyond their capabilities. I have a number of buddies that brought a BP/W when they were brand new divers and they coped just fine.

And non BP/W BCs require custom fitting, i.e. different sizes. I had to try a number of different sized BCs before I settled on the right size for my Ladyhawk BC. Whilst you can get different sized plates and so on for BP/Ws most people can easily fit into any BP/W with a simple harness after a few minutes of adjustment. I have loaned mine out to all sorts of divers, with all sorts of sizes.

I think people should dive with whatever they want, and I'll happily wear a jacket BC if it is the only thing on offer, so I'm not saying that people should dive in a BP/W because it is easier to adjust (I think it is but recognise this is my opinion) but your argument doesn't make any sense and especially your claim that it is 'fact'.

 

[Scott L]

That is not what you said though: "A BP/Wing is great but adjusting, etc. is too much to ask of a new diver..."

It's not too much to ask. People can do it if they want, it's not beyond their capabilities. I have a number of buddies that brought a BP/W when they were brand new divers and they coped just fine.

And non BP/W BCs require custom fitting, i.e. different sizes. I had to try a number of different sized BCs before I settled on the right size for my Ladyhawk BC. Whilst you can get different sized plates and so on for BP/Ws most people can easily fit into any BP/W with a simple harness after a few minutes of adjustment. I have loaned mine out to all sorts of divers, with all sorts of sizes.

I think people should dive with whatever they want, and I'll happily wear a jacket BC if it is the only thing on offer, so I'm not saying that people should dive in a BP/W because it is easier to adjust (I think it is but recognise this is my opinion) but your argument doesn't make any sense and especially your claim that it is 'fact'.

Let me reiterate, 1% of the market. Halcyon, DSS, Oxychex and Golem would crank'em out if there was more demand....

 

[Sas]

Let me reiterate, 1% of the market. Halcyon, DSS, Oxychex and Golem would crank'em out if there was more demand....

Could you explain how this, relates to the question I asked you based on this comment that you made "A BP/Wing is great but adjusting, etc. is too much to ask of a new diver.."

As currently, it seems completely irrelevant, but happy to be corrected.

 

[gcbryan]

Speaking of a red herring, the reasons for limited penetration in the market of BP's has nothing to do with how easy it is for a beginner to adjust them. Beginners wear whatever LDS's sell them. If they sold them something with 50 different adjustment buckles that's what beginners would be doing and using.

We all know that some of the most change adverse people in the world are equipment manufacturers, dive shops and shop instructors. They do things because that's the way it's always been done.

If every dive shop fully stocked BP's then every student would buy one and every instructor would be pushing them as "what we wear".

Talking about how only SB divers wear them and not the "real world" is missing the point. The "real world" isn't wearing them because they have never been exposed to them and they aren't pushed by their dive shops and instructors.

Dive shops are already pushing their traditional line. BP's to a large extent would piss off existing manufacturers and would potentially mean less profit for dive shops. They are harder to initially adjust, especially for a rental line. It can be done however.

Whether you like BP's or not how many people are using them has no bearing on whether they are a good idea or not. Change always comes slow.

Just as it's irritating to hear that a BP solves every problem in the world it's also irritating to hear how they can't be any good or "dive pros" would all be using them or other equally absurd statements.

I know a lot of dive instructors who do use them now for their personal diving who initially were some of the most resistant people to change that I've witnessed.

How many people said personal computers and cell phones would never be used by the masses!

 

[Sas]

Speaking of a red herring, the reasons for limited penetration in the market of BP's has nothing to do with how easy it is for a beginner to adjust them. Beginners wear whatever LDS's sell them. If they sold them something with 50 different adjustment buckles that's what beginners would be doing and using.

What is common really depends on what area one dives in and the types of divers one associates with. The shop I usually go to only stocks BP/Ws in the store area, though you can get jacket/backinflate styles if you ask for them. Most stores I have been into stock both.

I dive with about 15 people regularly (well not all at once ). 12 have BP/Ws, three of those dive with twins mostly, and six of the non-twinset divers replaced jacket/backinflate BCs with BP/Ws and the other three bought BP/Ws as brand new divers.

Another two buddies have Transpacs (one dives with twins) and one other buddy has a jacket style.

Out of the 15 only four I would consider 'technical' divers, 1 more contemplating further training (Cave more specifically) and the rest are recreational divers with no aspirations to do technical diving.

They are fairly common here and sometimes they are in the majority on recreational charter dives even. Note, this is not a comment saying that they are better setups (personal preference) but just that it's certainly not 1% where I am.

 

[SangP]

What is common really depends on what area one dives in and the types of divers one associates with. The shop I usually go to only stocks BP/Ws in the store area, though you can get jacket/backinflate styles if you ask for them. Most stores I have been into stock both.

I dive with about 15 people regularly (well not all at once ). 12 have BP/Ws, three of those dive with twins mostly, and six of the non-twinset divers replaced jacket/backinflate BCs with BP/Ws and the other three bought BP/Ws as brand new divers.

Another two buddies have Transpacs (one dives with twins) and one other buddy has a jacket style.

Out of the 15 only four I would consider 'technical' divers, 1 more contemplating further training (Cave more specifically) and the rest are recreational divers with no aspirations to do technical diving.

They are fairly common here and sometimes they are in the majority on recreational charter dives even. Note, this is not a comment saying that they are better setups (personal preference) but just that it's certainly not 1% where I am.

Totally agree, every setup has a benefit for certain conditions. Being a techie, I of course prefer a b/p for even my rec trips but my photography mates generally prefer jackets but always complain that my b/p dries faster than their's .

SangP

 

[TechBlue]

All you need to do is look at how a BCD sags on a divers back out of the water, in the water BCD's have a tendency to lift away from the diver when inflated if you change positions in the water you have this same floaty effect a BCD just does not keep your cylinder as close and tight to your body as a BP when used with a crotch strap a BP provides a 5 point contact to hold the cylinder on your back in the same position regardless of the divers position in the water column. A BP also allows me to dive with exactly the same configuration regardless of weather I am using a single cylinder, doubles or a rebreather, everything stays the same in the same place exactly where I need it to be, nothing extra. The same thing regarding weight distribution you can use SS plates with add on weights if you choose, aluminium, or kydex.

Regarding the comment about DM's and Instructors working in resorts using BCD's almost exclusively, BP's have only recently entered the non technical section of diving they do not make a lot of money and as it has already been noted they buy a wing at the best price and dive it to death. This does not make it a superior piece of equipment once again it is marketing, what they were trained to use and what is easily available. A lot of resort areas either do not have BP's available, or they are more expensive, and as was mentioned by one rather ignorant Mexican DM you only use a BP for cave diving, it is all a matter of perception.

Dive whatever you want, the primary reason for diving is fun and enjoyment. If you are happy with your BCD that is fine and switching to a BP is not likely to wave a wand and make you a better diver but like it or not a BP wing setup is a superior piece of kit

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Regarding the comment about DM's and Instructors working in resorts using BCD's almost exclusively, BP's have only recently entered the non technical section of diving they do not make a lot of money and as it has already been noted they buy a wing at the best price and dive it to death. This does not make it a superior piece of equipment once again it is marketing, what they were trained to use and what is easily available. A lot of resort areas either do not have BP's available, or they are more expensive, and as was mentioned by one rather ignorant Mexican DM you only use a BP for cave diving, it is all a matter of perception.

I'd like some second and third opinions about whether the above is a very narrow minded view of resort diving. Here in Hawaii, I would agree with the above quoted percentages of resort instructor's using vest BC's (no such thing as resort DM's in Hawaii). But Hawaii is not a dive resort location; our resort diving is mostly Intro's and OW Cert's. Mostly I'm wondering; Is it really JUST marketing?

Hawaii resorts do not lend themselves to dive op's that do retail. Perhaps the predominant dive op in Hawaii is the charter boat, but I'm comfortable saying ~half of our charter operators do not have a brick and mortar "store" so retail is out of the question. A prudent Hawaii instructor would take long looks at fleaBay, craigslist and swing by the Salvation Army 2 or 3 times a week.

We really can't afford wholesale +10%, +S&H (although often we pay it). I searched/waited for months to score my blue vest SeaQuest off eBay for $130 shipped; the same style I took new ($250 clearance) to my "zero to hero" CDC, and the same style as nearly all the resort BC's my employers have had for customers. It's easy to train warm water divers in that style BC, it's easy to train in the same style BC and it's not hard to dive well in that style BC.

One day I popped into Salvation Army and a nearly unused blue Balance was my reward, for $20. Now I guide in the Balance and instruct in the vest, but if the price had been $100 for the Balance I would still only be diving the vest. It's OK, for $20 (well maybe a little better than OK). How much will it be for a competent ebay BP/W shipped to Maui?

>95% of all rental BC's in Hawaii are vest BC's; resorts, charters and dive shops. It's probably higher by a few digits. Here on Maui there are those that would limit commercial ocean recreation at many popular sites due to supposed negative impact of badly trained and guided divers over the reefs, and they are watching us closely. Partly due to that scrutiny, I do not see tours comprised of the sawtooth profile, rototilling noob's many of the BP/W crowd "claim" the "poodle jacket" mostly produces.

I mostly see happy new divers who are doing quite well. Our employers would not be our employers if we were fueling our opponents fire and customers were being scared or hurt. We would also not be able to afford car insurance without tips; if any of us thought BP/W, or even BI smaller than XXL, would increase our tips from the multitude of vacation and Intro diver's, don't you think there would be more? If nothing is broken, what good is a fix?