Going from BP-wing to Jacket BCD ...

[Akimbo]

The BC is just much easier to get into and out of, the adjustable plastic shoulder clips are a huge benefit...

Agreed, unless shoulder straps are easily adjusted like on blow-molded back packs and the Freedom Plate. There may be some others I have not seen, but the vast majority of metal plates are a step backward IMHO. I added a cam buckle low on my left shoulder strap when rigging my Freedom pack for even greater ease for removal — as was common before jacket BCs.

 

[Web Monkey]

I've personally never said that it made you a better diver, however my personal opinion is that a BP/W is a much better piece of equipment, for a variety of reasons ranging from versatility of application to custom fit.

"Custom fit" is only useful when necessary, and I don't have a clue what you mean by "versatility". It's just a bag that can hold variable amounts of air and a place to hang your tank.

Where's the trade off? I have horizontal stability and can hover in any position both with a BP/W. Actually, if that's the logic you want to stick with, you've just proven that the BP/W is better

If you can hang in any position with air in your wing, Archimedes wants to talk to you.

Terry

 

[Doubler]

Nemrod,
I dive a Oceanic Probe which I love. My problem with the Probe is when I dive my PRAM I can't get the PRAM in the correct location for efficient breathing. Did you dive your Dual Hose with the Poodle Jacket? I am seriously thinking of getting a Diverite Transpac unless I can find a way to make my Probe/PRAM function together.
In my case I started diving in 72 and went from Horse collar to Scubapro Stab Jacket. I have never dove a wing for the very reason you stated about the face plant. I am sure that it is just a matter of training. I admit that on the surface I will crank in the air to get my head up. I also admit the very few divers that I run into on liveaboards with BP/W have really excellent trim and buoyancy.

 

[spectrum]

I dove my PRAM with my Sherwood Avid jacket for rears with delightful performance. IMO the whole idea of wearing the cylinder/regulator low is not that relevant if you are in horizontal trim to begin with.

When I went to a plate the Freedom Plate was the answer to making the PRAM work with HP80 cylinders. On a conventional plate (DSS) I could not get 2 cam bands on the short cylinder and be high enough to clear the plate.

Pete

 

[Nemrod]

Nemrod,
I dive a Oceanic Probe which I love. My problem with the Probe is when I dive my PRAM I can't get the PRAM in the correct location for efficient breathing. Did you dive your Dual Hose with the Poodle Jacket? I am seriously thinking of getting a Diverite Transpac unless I can find a way to make my Probe/PRAM function together.
In my case I started diving in 72 and went from Horse collar to Scubapro Stab Jacket. I have never dove a wing for the very reason you stated about the face plant. I am sure that it is just a matter of training. I admit that on the surface I will crank in the air to get my head up. I also admit the very few divers that I run into on liveaboards with BP/W have really excellent trim and buoyancy.

Yes, I dove the Equator with my PRAM, no issues. The top security band (just a Velcro strap) was high on the neck but no issues really. Not a very good pic, please forgive me, it was my first time out with the new camera rig and my first time in a poodle jacket, I was freaking out with all of the newness and high tech:

The Transpac, I don't know if that will solve your problems, I like the Oxy fabric Ultralight plate and the Freedom Plate for wings with a DH reg.

This was my first experience with a poodle jacket (me using one) and as I said, it was surprisingly comfortable and capable.

N

 

[JohnB47]

I started diving in 1969, when the issue was whether or not to use a safety vest! By around 1971, the Bouee Fenzy and Nemrod horse-collar BC's were available, and I got a Nemrod, complete with a tiny air bottle that hung from the bottom of the vest. It was a big improvement. On a boat dive in Door County, Wisconsin, an instructor from Chicago informed me that I had air in my safety vest, as I relaxed comfortably on the surface. I told him that it was a buoyancy compensator, and that I knew there was air in it. I watched him struggle to stay on the surface, waiting for the rest of the divers to get into the water. Shortly after that, I created a homemade power inflater for the BC, using an air valve that had to be turned to operate it, and stopped using the tiny air bottle. When push-button inflaters became available, I got one. I kept using that rig through the 70's and 80's. In the 90's, I finally bought a Scubapro Classic stabilizing jacket BCD, and that is what I am still using. I like the fact that it allows me to be stable in any position, and makes it easy to swim on my back on the surface. I would probably get a BP/W if I were going to dive with doubles, but I don't know if I will ever use doubles again - they are too heavy for my poor old back. So I just got an HP 120 to use with my BCD for dives where I need a bit more air. This is a little off thread, as I have not yet used BP/W, but I thought it might be an interesting bit of history regarding different methods of buoyancy control.

 

[scubafanatic]

That may have been years ago, but it no longer is. The jacket BC was an invention of the dive gear industry that's emblematic of many of the bad qualities that plague modern recreational dive gear design. It's basically a life jacket with tank straps that feels nice and cozy in the dive shop, where purchasing decisions are made, and mostly serves beginners in class who are spending half their time on the surface. It was designed to sell, not actually perform well while diving.

BTW, the divers I've seen struggling at the surface have all been wearing jacket BCs. It's a little ironic.

I'm almost always leery of "gear as solution" scenarios, but in this one case, I feel that new divers are subjected to a bad gear idea in the first place, and removing the obstacle of the bad gear immediately makes diving easier. I've seen this over and over again. My first dive with a steel backplate was a revelation, because the tank was coupled to my back in a stable manner and weight distribution (ballast located between the two primary sources of buoyancy) was balanced.

Agreed, it's my position that the vast majority of scuba gear was designed by non-divers who maybe watch the Discover channel to imagine what it might be like to go diving and design gear based on pure theory, without input from actual divers or ever having actually been diving themselves (especially across a diverse set of situations/conditions).

I design/build/modify pretty much all of my gear (except for tanks/computers) due to poor design/sub-standard materials-assembly...across many different brands....yesterday alone I made 2 'mods' (one to a brand new Waterproof wetsuit I was about to take to a pool test dive.....the other to a brand new beenie that I took in to a sewing shop to reposition the velcro closure mechanism, as while the actual beenie was correctly sized a 'L', the chin strap was designed for proper tension/closure for someone with the neck diameter of an NFL linebacker....XXXXXXL....the manufacturer apparently never actually had a normal sized human wear the beenie to see if the dang thing had a chance in h*ll of staying on!)

Any industry that can't produce a proper beenie, or design a proper velcro neck closure on a wetsuit, has me concluding the bulk of scuba gear manufacturers/designers really only cyberdive via the Discover channel videos!

 

[Web Monkey]

BTW, the divers I've seen struggling at the surface have all been wearing jacket BCs. It's a little ironic.

Considering that jacket BCs account for a huge majority of BC sales, that's not surprising.

Terry

 

[gcbryan]

That may have been years ago, but it no longer is. The jacket BC was an invention of the dive gear industry that's emblematic of many of the bad qualities that plague modern recreational dive gear design. It's basically a life jacket with tank straps that feels nice and cozy in the dive shop, where purchasing decisions are made, and mostly serves beginners in class who are spending half their time on the surface. It was designed to sell, not actually perform well while diving.

BTW, the divers I've seen struggling at the surface have all been wearing jacket BCs. It's a little ironic.

My exact thoughts every time I used to put on my BC were that it would be nice it scuba equipment was actually designed by a diver because with my BC that didn't seem to be the case.

They all work however. If a BP is too heavy for travel...get a lighter one, if a BC doesn't fit well...get one that does...if your feet float in a drysuit the first consideration would be better fitting boats rather than a BP/W.

A jacket BC (or BP/W) is what it is.
I'm almost always leery of "gear as solution" scenarios, but in this one case, I feel that new divers are subjected to a bad gear idea in the first place, and removing the obstacle of the bad gear immediately makes diving easier. I've seen this over and over again. My first dive with a steel backplate was a revelation, because the tank was coupled to my back in a stable manner and weight distribution (ballast located between the two primary sources of buoyancy) was balanced.

The reason that the people who you see struggling at the surface have all been wearing jacket BC's is because new divers mostly are in jacket BC's.

I had a lot of dives before I switched to a BP/W and my buoyancy/trim was fine either way.

I personally agree with you in that I don't think BC's are well designed but it's mainly the DIR types who are the most vocal anti-BC posters including recommending a BP/W as the solution to every problem.

If a BP is too heavy to travel...get a little BP, if a BC doesn't fit well...get one that does.

I do agree that most BC's don't seem to be designed by divers.

 

[halocline]

The reason that the people who you see struggling at the surface have all been wearing jacket BC's is because new divers mostly are in jacket BC's.

There is an element of truth to this. (and to webmonkey's comment about there just being far more jacket BCs) However, I know from extensive experience with both jackets and BP/Ws that a BP/W with a crotch strap is better at the surface than an ill fitting jacket with no crotch strap.

I also disagree with the comment that jacket BCs are easier to get in and out of. I find the hogarthian harness much easier to don/doff than my old jacket BC. The clips, padding, floppy straps all made it much more of a pain.