Hey Hoover ~ Did you ruin someone's dive?

[MXGratefulDiver]

My issue isn't with pony bottles ... it's with people who include using them in their dive plan (i.e. to extend their dive), don't train and/or prepare adequately for their deployment. I also have issues with dive shops that promote them without offering adequate training in their deployment.

It's not that hard ... but like all safety equipment, it requires some practice. Last year we had a death locally because a young man (DM candidate, no less) planned on using his pony to extend his dive, intentionally separated from his buddy at the end of a dive, and when he needed it, realized his pony second-stage wasn't deployable. He died with 19 cubic feet of gas on his back.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RiverRat]

This is a good thread. I see my post awhile back on having ponies available for rent stirred things up a bit, that's good. The reason I thought it would be a good idea is that I travel solo. Even though I plan a dive with a buddy I sometimes end up diving "solo" whether I want to or not. For me, just having a redundant system available, considering the odds are better for me to end up "solo" diving, sounds like a good idea. I did NOT suggest it as a solution for a hoover to extend bottom time. When I was a newbie and "hooving" I ended my dives sooner. Yeah it sucked, but that was the deal. I do agree with PUG, that if one were properly trained, then using a tank as a stage would be OK. But by the time a newbie got to that level then having another (or larger) tank may not be required as their SAC rate would increase by then. That's why I have not used one yet although I have one here under my desk. I'll use it when I'm ready. I may do some Cavern training, ice dives etc. and I also dive wrecks. I think I'm ready soon for another bottle but I won't use it unless it's "IN MY PLAN" so to speak. Using a pony at the END of a dive to EXTEND bottom time is a NO NO. I think most of us would agree on that? We know a small tank, especially at deeper depths, will empty much faster than our large tank with the same pressure. We still want to plan the dive on our main tank and return with sufficient gas. Yet dive shops push spare airs? Useless. I also agree there is a problem with training and crappy voodoo stories being told by many (some more than others) training orgs. and dive shops. Stupid crap that only confuses new divers and can actually get someone hurt. Many accidents happen to new divers, it's no wonder. This is one reason I did not take the DM course. I did the Multi Level Marketing (MLM) thing, no thanks. I thought it would be a good confidence building type class, for my personal use, but once I was told to buy more "shop gear" that did it for me. I can understand the marketing priciples, it's a business thing. But telling new divers a BP/W will kill you, and throwing 30 lbs. of lead on a belt just to sell cards and gear does not sit right with me. I was even told about how I like to "brag" about how little ditchable weight I dive! He was trying to sell weight integrated BC's in a class. C'mon! That's low! I'm not totally DIR, but I do respect the word they're putting out. At least they're training divers to be divers, not just trying to sell crap. Sorry to rant, it's just this training crap gets me going...........

 

[RiverRat]

Thanks for the suggestion! I am heading out to Thailand to dive at the end of the month and if I can not get a bigger tank then I 'll see if that is a possiblity. I also think there would be a good market for the extra tank. I know I would not mind paying a bit more for a better experience and not having to cut someone elses dive short.

large and lovely
PLEASE understand that I merely suggested the pony for REDUNDANCY, NOT to EXTEND your dives! I don't want to send the wrong message. PLEASE finish your dives on your main tank with enough reserve air for a safety margin. Re-read this whole thread and feel free to come back and ask questions.

 

[MASS-Diver]

As to tips to newbies for limiting their hooverness, the key (IMO) is focusing on nice long exhales. Really blow the gas out for a while. People that suck down air breath rapid and shallow, if you blow out nice long breaths it will help a ton (and prevent Co2 buildup that leads to hoverness as well).

In terms of the pony stuff, that's junk IMO. Adding extra gear is the last thing most newbies need - if they square away their current rig and become more comfortable most of these problems will resolve. Most of these people that suck down tanks have Co2 buildup issues as well, adding all kinds of tanks is just going to get them into trouble.

You can take any experinced diver and overwieght them by 15 or 20lbs and you have instant hoover. No one if comfortable when they are overweight. The focus should be on making sure the new diver is diving a squared, uncomplicated rig that they understand. Then doing lots of easy dives and practicing basic skills will take care of everything else. Mickey mouse solutions really have no place here.

 

[jstuart1]

All this discussion about pony bottle deployment has gotten my curious. I have a pony 13cft that I got with the intention of carying on all my local dives since they tend to be solo. My plan was to mount to the BC strap and turn the air on at the same time I turn the main tank on and go through the same check of the reg and pressure gauge as I do my main tank. The reg hose is much shorter than my oct and therefore would be secured higher on the front of the BC. Therefore I would have my primary, main tank octo in the normal spot and the pony reg mounted higher up towards my shoulder. I haven't tried this yet since I got it at the end of the warm water season and I"m not set up for cold water yet.

My understanding of deployment is separating the tank from you to hand off if needed. But my question is why do you leave the air turned off? I am using the same regulator just without primary as I use for my regular setup so aside from free flow why would you leave the tank turned off?

 

[RiverRat]

As to tips to newbies for limiting their hooverness, the key (IMO) is focusing on nice long exhales. Really blow the gas out for a while. People that suck down air breath rapid and shallow, if you blow out nice long breaths it will help a ton (and prevent Co2 buildup that leads to hoverness as well).

You're absolutely right. The thread got off onto independant doubles, ponies etc.
Proper breathing, weighting, trim etc. and becoming a relaxed, confident diver is key.

In terms of the pony stuff, that's junk IMO. Adding extra gear is the last thing most newbies need - if they square away their current rig and become more comfortable most of these problems will resolve. Most of these people that suck down tanks have Co2 buildup issues as well, adding all kinds of tanks is just going to get them into trouble.

I wouldn't say the pony stuff is "junk", but as related to "hooverness", not as relevant.
I would agree squaring your rig away is important. I think it's a little harder for "non-technical" divers to sometimes understand the concepts and get straightened out. I don't mean non-technical as in "tech" divers, but folks that aren't technical in nature overall.

You can take any experienced diver and overwieght them by 15 or 20lbs and you have instant hoover. No one if comfortable when they are overweight. The focus should be on making sure the new diver is diving a squared, uncomplicated rig that they understand. Then doing lots of easy dives and practicing basic skills will take care of everything else. Mickey mouse solutions really have no place here.

Agreed, I learned this in my OW dives, 28#, vertical, on my knees.

 

[RiverRat]

All this discussion about pony bottle deployment has gotten my curious. I have a pony 13cft that I got with the intention of carying on all my local dives since they tend to be solo. My plan was to mount to the BC strap and turn the air on at the same time I turn the main tank on and go through the same check of the reg and pressure gauge as I do my main tank. The reg hose is much shorter than my oct and therefore would be secured higher on the front of the BC. Therefore I would have my primary, main tank octo in the normal spot and the pony reg mounted higher up towards my shoulder. I haven't tried this yet since I got it at the end of the warm water season and I"m not set up for cold water yet.

My understanding of deployment is separating the tank from you to hand off if needed. But my question is why do you leave the air turned off? I am using the same regulator just without primary as I use for my regular setup so aside from free flow why would you leave the tank turned off?

I'm not a tech diver but I believe that the procedures for using a bottle as a stage may be different than what may be recommended for recreational pony use. Obviously if it's backmounted and you can't reach (or practice reaching) the valve you may have some serious problems if it's off. I'd like to see the tech divers jump in here and explain about stage bottles and "slung" ponies etc.

 

[rricks90254]

The intent of this thread wasn't to make hoovers feel bad... just to get folks to think about their responsibility toward other divers. If you are a hoover please consider the impact you have on other divers and especially in those *special places* and on those *irreplaceable dives*.

As I've stated before, recompense doesn't mean money... infact the cost of the dive may very well be insignificant compared to the other *costs* involved. But there are ways that you can recompense another diver if you find yourself in a situation similar to the scenarios set forth here. My suggestion was that gratitude expressed in thanks goes a long way.

For the non-hoovers: what are some of the ways you could be recompensed for having to sacrifice of a significant percentage of your special trip by being paired with a hoover.

Pug (and all the air sippers)

I'm a newbie (30 dives in 18 months) and I consider myself a hoover, I get 30 minutes out of a tank at max depth of 90 fsw, and I can definately say I did not feel bad about your original post. Luckily I have done all but one dive with the same buddy (my wife). Unfortunately for her as she's got great air consumption.

When we've been at dive destinations I am always upfront with the DM's and other divers that I'm the 'weak link' on air. My wife and I both are confident in our skills and have no problems doing our safety stops without the DM's even on drift dives in open water. We've only had one DM insist the entire group go up as one, but this was on the Corsair off Oahu at 105' in a pretty fast current. I think he was more concerned about the kid from Canada as he was a little reckless in attitude.

If I do dive with out the wife and I get buddied up with you, I'm definately going to tell you I'm an air-sucking dog. I don't want surprises at depth and I'm sure you don't either. If after telling you, you decide you would rather not be my buddy, I definatly respect your decision and I should be the one talking to the DM about a different buddy that has my same profile. Additionally, I'd still be willign to buy you a beer afterwards - maybe you will help me with my gas consumption tomorrow on a dfifernet dive. If you do dive with me, then drinks are on me at the end of the dive (especially at an AI)

Hey I want to get better and I'm working on it. I didn't go to the top of the mountain on my first ski trip and I know I'm not going to stay at the bottem of the ocean right away. I've been to the top and I know I'm going to become an air sipper (side note: Is an air sipper kin to a 'UT Tea Sipper' )

This whole thread has been thought provoking for me and I even went back and looked thru my dive logs to see when I did better and when I did worse. The first dive of the trip is always worst but gets dramattically better each successive dive. Shame the deep dive is always the first.

RR

 

[MASS-Diver]

All this discussion about pony bottle deployment has gotten my curious. I have a pony 13cft that I got with the intention of carying on all my local dives since they tend to be solo. My plan was to mount to the BC strap and turn the air on at the same time I turn the main tank on and go through the same check of the reg and pressure gauge as I do my main tank. The reg hose is much shorter than my oct and therefore would be secured higher on the front of the BC. Therefore I would have my primary, main tank octo in the normal spot and the pony reg mounted higher up towards my shoulder. I haven't tried this yet since I got it at the end of the warm water season and I"m not set up for cold water yet.

My understanding of deployment is separating the tank from you to hand off if needed. But my question is why do you leave the air turned off? I am using the same regulator just without primary as I use for my regular setup so aside from free flow why would you leave the tank turned off?

When you dive with separate bottles for decompression, you leave the valves off (but the reg pressurized) so that in the event of a free-flow at depth you do not lose your deco gas. Also, having the valve closed is related to part of the proper procedure of switching to the deco gas (you breath the reg down and then turn it on - if you can breath you have the right bottle).

Rec divers have seized upon this and come up with questions like you have - that really do not apply. I don't see any use for a 13cu pony and I think the way your rigging it is just going to lead to an overlycomplicated rig that will get your into trouble.

If you are diving shallow (even solo) there's no need for a pony - you can simply swim up. If you are diving deeper, you should be running doubles. You need to figure out your SAC and plan your dives that way - simply doing your own thing and putting toghter a rig that seems to make sense to you is not a good way to go.

Since if you screw up, you could die, it's best to learn from others mistakes and adapt a rig that has already been shown to work (and understand the reasoning behind it).

 

[MASS-Diver]

Pug (and all the air sippers)

I'm a newbie (30 dives in 18 months) and I consider myself a hoover, I get 30 minutes out of a tank at max depth of 90 fsw, and I can definately say I did not feel bad about your original post. Luckily I have done all but one dive with the same buddy (my wife). Unfortunately for her as she's got great air consumption.


Hey I want to get better and I'm working on it. I didn't go to the top of the mountain on my first ski trip and I know I'm not going to stay at the bottem of the ocean right away. I've been to the top and I know I'm going to become an air sipper (side note: Is an air sipper kin to a 'UT Tea Sipper' )

This whole thread has been thought provoking for me and I even went back and looked thru my dive logs to see when I did better and when I did worse. The first dive of the trip is always worst but gets dramattically better each successive dive. Shame the deep dive is always the first.

RR

Why are you diving that deep if you are a self-described "newbie"? Do you have an AOW card at least? Also, have you been taught how to plan dives at that depth or do you simply wing (return to the boat at 500psi or 100psi - without know why that number was choosen)? If you do not how to plan how much gas you need for dives and you are bad of air - that's an espically dangerous combination.