Horizontal trim

[kyletaylor]

Yea cheers I defiantly agree with all of that! I don't plan on working straight away. I'm planning on taking a couple tech based courses over summer to further my skills and then start work possibly mid next year. I appreciate all your advise and will take it on board throughout my diving career.

 

[RJP]

Yea cheers I defiantly agree with all of that!

Freudian slip?

:d

 

[chillyinCanada]

 

[kyletaylor]

Freudian slip?

:d

Ha damn auto correct!!

 

[The Chairman]

The problem is that we have a lot of over weighted DMs and Instructors out there with horrible trim. It's a self perpetuating phenomenon. We can point a lot of fingers at who's to blame and in the end, that just doesn't matter. What matters is that we have someone who gives a damn and wants to do better. THAT'S instructor material in my book. Great trim and buoyancy aren't that hard to achieve. While it's best learned in OW and refined over time, a DM or Instructor struggling with it is not that uncommon, and it's just not that hard to add to your other skills. I thought Devon Diver had the best answer so far. You have to look at your trim under water as a balancing act: the result of two opposing forces, ie ying and yang. It's far harder to remain balanced on a bike when it's not moving because momentum covers over a lot balance flaws. That's precisely why we need to start in a stationary position. Because as trim as you think you are under power, you're going to find that getting balanced before you go will make even that easier.

Ying and yang. Two opposing forces that result in harmony when balanced. For me, ying is all the floaty stuff and yang is all the sinky stuff. Fist concept: your ying and yang must be minimal. Carry only the lead you need. If you carry more, you will have to increase the bubble in your BC and that will cause problems as you progress. Also, stop sculling with your hands as that produces an off centered ying. Get neutral, fold your hands together and let your body find it's equilibrium: don't fight it. You just want to see if you're head up or head down at this point.

Second concept: align your ying and yang. The easiest way to do this is to slide your tank back and forth in your BC. Move it a couple of inches and then redo your trim check. Don't forget to fold your hands and stop kicking. Buoyancy should close enough that you can adjust the rest with your breathing. Keep moving your tank up and down in the BC until your resting trim is flat. This is far easier when things aren't allowed to shift. That means having a minimal amount of air in your BC and being sure that your BC doesn't move. Heck, that's why I don't dive without a crotch strap. If your BC doesn't have a method for attaching one, figure it out anyway. It's impossible to align transient forces. Just as you get close, the ying or yang shift in a manner you didn't expect, screwing up your balance. Also, being completely prone is not natural to most people. Lie belly down on the floor to get an idea how it feels. Can you look straight ahead? Probably not. Learn to tilt your head side to side to look straight ahead. Now you don't have to worry about your reg touching the back of your head.

FWiW, it's my personal opinion that this phenomenon arises out of people learning to Scuba on their knees. The traditional method is to have all the students on their knees in a semi circle learning their skills and trim/buoyancy being put off to a specialty class. As an instructor to be, think about how this has adversely affected your abilities and your enjoyment thus far. My OW classes start with those two concepts. Once they get those down, the rest is easy and their knees never need to touch the bottom.

 

[kyletaylor]

The problem is that we have a lot of over weighted DMs and Instructors out there with horrible trim. It's a self perpetuating phenomenon. We can point a lot of fingers at who's to blame and in the end, that just doesn't matter. What matters is that we have someone who gives a damn and wants to do better. THAT'S instructor material in my book. Great trim and buoyancy aren't that hard to achieve. While it's best learned in OW and refined over time, a DM or Instructor struggling with it is not that uncommon, and it's just not that hard to add to your other skills. I thought Devon Diver had the best answer so far. You have to look at your trim under water as a balancing act: the result of two opposing forces, ie ying and yang. It's far harder to remain balanced on a bike when it's not moving because momentum covers over a lot balance flaws. That's precisely why we need to start in a stationary position. Because as trim as you think you are under power, you're going to find that getting balanced before you go will make even that easier.

Ying and yang. Two opposing forces that result in harmony when balanced. For me, ying is all the floaty stuff and yang is all the sinky stuff. Fist concept: your ying and yang must be minimal. Carry only the lead you need. If you carry more, you will have to increase the bubble in your BC and that will cause problems as you progress. Also, stop sculling with your hands as that produces an off centered ying. Get neutral, fold your hands together and let your body find it's equilibrium: don't fight it. You just want to see if you're head up or head down at this point.

Second concept: align your ying and yang. The easiest way to do this is to slide your tank back and forth in your BC. Move it a couple of inches and then redo your trim check. Don't forget to fold your hands and stop kicking. Buoyancy should close enough that you can adjust the rest with your breathing. Keep moving your tank up and down in the BC until your resting trim is flat. This is far easier when things aren't allowed to shift. That means having a minimal amount of air in your BC and being sure that your BC doesn't move. Heck, that's why I don't dive without a crotch strap. If your BC doesn't have a method for attaching one, figure it out anyway. It's impossible to align transient forces. Just as you get close, the ying or yang shift in a manner you didn't expect, screwing up your balance. Also, being completely prone is not natural to most people. Lie belly down on the floor to get an idea how it feels. Can you look straight ahead? Probably not. Learn to tilt your head side to side to look straight ahead. Now you don't have to worry about your reg touching the back of your head.

FWiW, it's my personal opinion that this phenomenon arises out of people learning to Scuba on their knees. The traditional method is to have all the students on their knees in a semi circle learning their skills and trim/buoyancy being put off to a specialty class. As an instructor to be, think about how this has adversely affected your abilities and your enjoyment thus far. My OW classes start with those two concepts. Once they get those down, the rest is easy and their knees never need to touch the bottom.

Cheers for that netdoc!! Yea thinking back at my OW training, it was done just on our knees. I think the problem is in the standards itself. In padi anyway. Start of with doing fin pivots and then in AOW the hover there's no emphasis on horizontal midwater hover. In terms of teaching these do you do it the same with all students regardless of age?

 

[The Chairman]

Cheers for that netdoc!! Yea thinking back at my OW training, it was done just on our knees. I think the problem is in the standards itself. In padi anyway. Start of with doing fin pivots and then in AOW the hover there's no emphasis on horizontal midwater hover. In terms of teaching these do you do it the same with all students regardless of age?

Watch for PADI to change radically this year. They will roll it out at DEMA and it should be in place by the end of the year. If my sources are correct, then knees will be allowed, but you won't see that in any training video created from here on out. Learning skills while neutral will be encouraged while kneeling in OW at all will be discouraged. You can thank BoulderJohn, Quero and a few others for that change.

I work things differently than most. First off, I don't teach or recommend fin pivots. My students work from the top down, not the bottom up. If your fins are touching the bottom, then you're not very trim. We've had quite the discussion about getting trim HERE. It doesn't matter if they are old or very young, the first thing I do in any class is to get my students trimmed out and neutral. That includes AOW, my Propulsion/Trim/Neutral Buoyancy workshop and even OW. The next order of business is getting them comfortable being neutrally balanced underwater. It's not a natural feeling and some people fight it. Sometimes, that's the only thing we do in the first session. However, once they get comfortable, the skills are way easier while neutral. Also, I don't have the usual assortment of freakouts or run-a-way divers that my colleagues seem to complain about. Once a diver is in control, they lose the fear that inhibits learning. It's a win/win situation.

 

[T-Wrecks]

Diving a backplate and wing will help matters dramatically, but you also need to consider your weight placement in relation to your center of gravity. Is your head sinking (aka "floaty feet")? Then you need to place weight lower in a tail weight to compensate, or get heavier fins. Feet sinking? Then placing weight near your shoulders in trim pockets will help compensate.

 

[kyletaylor]

Watch for PADI to change radically this year. They will roll it out at DEMA and it should be in place by the end of the year. If my sources are correct, then knees will be allowed, but you won't see that in any training video created from here on out. Learning skills while neutral will be encouraged while kneeling in OW at all will be discouraged. You can thank BoulderJohn, Quero and a few others for that change.

I work things differently than most. First off, I don't teach or recommend fin pivots. My students work from the top down, not the bottom up. If your fins are touching the bottom, then you're not very trim. We've had quite the discussion about getting trim HERE. It doesn't matter if they are old or very young, the first thing I do in any class is to get my students trimmed out and neutral. That includes AOW, my Propulsion/Trim/Neutral Buoyancy workshop and even OW. The next order of business is getting them comfortable being neutrally balanced underwater. It's not a natural feeling and some people fight it. Sometimes, that's the only thing we do in the first session. However, once they get comfortable, the skills are way easier while neutral. Also, I don't have the usual assortment of freakouts or run-a-way divers that my colleagues seem to complain about. Once a diver is in control, they lose the fear that inhibits learning. It's a win/win situation.

Padi does need to change a few things. One also being teaching hyperventilation in their skin diving course. I remember my first time on scuba when were made to go to our knees, myself and others had huge trouble staying our knees. I can see we're your coming from when you say the skills would be easier to learn once neutral. Better start practicing demonstrating these skills neural to then!!

 

[The Chairman]

Padi does need to change a few things.

No agency or even instructor is perfect. I'm OK with that. NASE does not require a 60 second hover. Nope. They require at least 100 minutes! To clarify, they require the student to stay neutral throughout the entire dive and to demonstrate that they can stop and turn without the use of their hands. I think that's great, but they don't require their OW students to be able to operate a sausage on the surface. They don't require OW students to be able to use a compass either. However, they allow me to require those and more before I certify a diver. Those are two skills that a diver here in the Keys needs to have.