Just got back from a weekend with bp/wings

[Scuba]

The difference between Seajay's excellent report and the many seen here spousing something similar to this:

"Get a BP/Wings." Why?

"BP/Wings are the best." For what specific purpose? For who'm? Do you know my needs and my priorities? What are its specific positive and negative qualities?

Is that Seajay's report is actually useful to a prospective customer/diver since it addresses many issues that may be of interest to many divers. Presenting the pros and cons as objectively as possible from his point of view without trying to steer everyone in one specific direction.

I remember my first "discussion" on this forum, it had to do with regulators and this is my recollection of it:

I found an incredible degree of intransigence, and yes narrow mindedness, in terms of an inability to see, be aware of or admit any shortcomings when discussing their selection. But all to quick to repeatedly point out the negatives in mine while brushing aside any positives. I repeatedly mentioned both the positives and negatives I was aware of with my regulator, and repeatedly asked them for a more objective assessment of theirs that would include its shortcomings. The typical answer simply repeated, once again, after I explicitely mentioned what I was looking for, the positives of their systems with no negatives, and the negatives of mine with no positives. Laughable, yet tragic.

Through enough persistance I was able to finally get someone to reluctantly mention a shortcoming in their system. To his credit I believe that was Uncle Pug. And when I showed the manufacturers breathing resistance charts to prove that mine breathed better, after they made claims that theirs breathed better, they simply moved the goal line, by saying this was not absolute proof of it, true, but could provide no evidence in return.

Typical of a lot of "in depth" arguments here by those more intent on converting others to their way then of objectively informing them by presenting the facts, both positive and negative, and letting them choose based on their best interests.

I really believe a disservice is being done when in response to question by a newby or anyone else, the respondent tries simply to persuade instead of objectively informing. No one has a monopoly on this, if I tend to "pick" on a certain group it is because I see a unison in approach in these matters that I don't see in any other group here.

If one's system or tool is indeed better, there is no reason why a valid comparison of pros to pros and cons to cons should be avoided. Quite the contrary, this would be much more convincing than a biased comparison, for most.

 

[raybo]

of an oxymoron than diving here?

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

Sailing Regattas in New Mexico???

Actually the first local one is this weekend, but I'm going to one in Phoenix. They're pretty much every other weekend at one lake till Memorial day, then to a Mountain lake for the summer, and back to the desert for the fall~ all the way to the 2nd week of December.

Definitely no offense taken on your comments. I agree there's no substitute foe the real thing, but just like a pre-dive planning session, a lot of good information can be exhanged here.

 

[GearHead]

Hey raybo, I don't know the lakes down there at all, but I assume that they're either enormous, or you're talking about smaller 1 or 2 man boats, right? So what kind of craft are we talking, J-24s, 505s, 49ers, Lazers, twin hulls? Inquiring minds want to know!

We see all kinds of regattas up here, and the Seattle Yacht Club syndicate boat, Oneworld, was one of the last eliminees in the America's Cup.

Rick

raybo once bubbled...
Actually the first local one is this weekend, but I'm going to one in Phoenix. They're pretty much every other weekend at one lake till Memorial day, then to a Mountain lake for the summer, and back to the desert for the fall~ all the way to the 2nd week of December.

Definitely no offense taken on your comments. I agree there's no substitute foe the real thing, but just like a pre-dive planning session, a lot of good information can be exhanged here. [/B]

 

[Uncle Pug]

raybo once bubbled...
of an oxymoron than diving here?

Now that you mention it... I didn't want to bring it up... but...
where do you dive???

You will need to make at least one trip up to the PNW.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Scuba once bubbled...
The difference between Seajay's excellent report
~~~~~
I remember my first "discussion" on this forum, it had to do with regulators and this is my recollection of it:
~~~~~
I found an incredible degree of intransigence, and yes narrow mindedness, in terms of an inability to see, be aware of or admit any shortcomings when discussing their selection.
B]

yes.... we strayed off the original topic.... that happens once a thread goes past 2 pages...

Nice report Seajay... you will learn a ton in the DIRf.

 

[leadweight]

Well said Scuba.

 

[SeaJay]

Wendy once bubbled...
SeaJay,

What guy are you talking about that has his backup reg sittin gin the middle of his chest? The one from the BAUE website? It shouldn't be sitting in the middle of your chest.

Heya, Wendy! Longtimnosee!

Yes, that's the picture that I'm talking about. The one from the BAUE website. By saying, "The middle of the chest," I mean, "Centered between the pectoral muscles." Sure, it's held a little higher than that, but on my rig, my secondary's hose was a little short, and my necklace was a little short... So my secondary stayed basically right over my right D-ring. It pretty much got in the way most of the time.

It's true that I could have gotten a better fit with a slightly longer hose and a slightly longer necklace... But I still don't think I'd be much of a fan of the necklace. At least, I don't think so. One of the terrific things about a bp/wing is the totally clean chest area, free of buckles, padding, straps, and other junk. It's pretty cool to be trimmed and buoyanced properly, and floating like that without any visible support. I enjoyed it quite a bit. And I believe that the necklace would detract from that a little. I also believe that while deployment of my donor reg was terribly time-sensitive, deployment of my secondary air source was much less hurried. So I think I would prefer a secondary secured elsewhere besides where I felt it was basically "in my face."

But hey, I'll keep an open mind... And maybe I'll get the opportunity to try a better-sized secondary at the DIR-F class.

There's something else that I'd like to say, too, about some of the subjects that y'all have been talking about...

Firstly, I can understand how non-DIR people may be in support of a specialized DIR forum. Sure, I, too, have felt "beat up" by DIR people. And the DIR people feel "beat up" by many others, especially those who have just recently been taught that jacket BC's are best, and that PADI teaches a long primary, short secondary, and that you donate the secondary. I really do understand both sides of the coin.

There are a few things, though, that I think are important to bring to light here, though, in this slow-burn flame war that's been going on between DIR supporters and nonsupporters.

Firstly, keep in mind that this is an Internet forum, and that anyone can sign on here, be whoever they want, and basically stretch the truth a little about their dive skills. DIR guys are well respected by those who know professional scuba diving, including the Underwater Explorers, Global Underwater Explorers, and the American Academy of Underwater Sciences. Even the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is familiar with the concepts of DIR, and many DIR supporters hold world records in scuba diving. In short, it's very "cool" to be a supporter of DIR, and many people who aren't exactly honest about their credentials can come here and basically claim to be DIR, and basically feel "superior" to other newbies. I see it happening a lot, and these people will criticize other divers. Thus, DIR can sometimes get a bad "rep" for being hypercritical of non-DIR divers. My experience with real DIR divers is that they're a little gunshy of non-DIR divers, because they're so accustomed to taking the backlash of that.

So to those non-DIR people who are a bit cynical and tired of having every topic turn into a DIR debate, remember that real DIR people really don't criticize others... They, like you, simply have a favorite way of diving. If you want real DIR information, then pick up the DIR fundementals book and read it. I am now, and frankly, it's really surprising what I'm reading.

To those people who are DIR... Please remember that the person immediately giving you sht about DIR probably just got reprimanded by some idiot who yelled at them for wearing the wrong color. Be patient with them, please, and remember that your chosen way to dive is not everyone's. Open minds work both ways, and there is no harm in seeing both points of view, and helping others to see both points of view. Remember that the "experts" in the newbie's eyes... Their instructors and their LDS... Have basically engrained in them that a certain brand of gear is the best and that "cult" groups like DIR guys are zealots. It's up to you to prove otherwise, so don't fall into the trap of the argument.

For everyone: If you are not yet a certified Advanced Open Water diver or higher, then please hold your opinions to yourself until you see the "PADI Advanced Open Water rig recommendation" on page eight (I think) of the PADI Advanced Open Water book. It looks surprisingly close to what DIR is teaching. DIR is not a different avenue than PADI... It's more of an enhancement. It's not about "doing things differently," and it's not about "going technical." It's simply the study and the mastery of the basics. The rig is only one-third of the equation... The other two thirds... Well... Just read the book. There's lots and lots of great information in there that can be used by any diver, even if you don't decide to dive a DIR rig. Heck, just the optional finning techniques are worth the price of the book.

Last of all, keep in mind that the way that one person dives may be totally different than the way another person dives. Sure, there's the obvious differences in opinion, but even more distinct, and not so obvious over the Internet, is the fact that many people do many different things while diving in many different conditions. For example, a tropical diver will likely prefer a minimalist wetsuit, a simple rig, and very little weight. Key things of importance to him might be ease of assembly, the ability to "hang" a BC on a tank while putting it together on a rocking boat, and he may want a place to put his camera. He may choose to dive with a computer because he is looking at marine life as a major event of the dive, which may be at unknonwn varying depths. This diver may never own a canister light, wear doubles, or need to dive with 20+ pounds because of the inherent buoyancy in his drysuit. This diver may not see the advantage in a "rig that does it all well," but instead would only want the rig that does what he does the best.

Conversely, imagine someone trying to clip off two stage bottles, a set of doubles, a scooter, and a canister light to your average, run-of-the-mill rental BC. Frankly, a bp/wing can do that, and can also do the tropical thing... And can do it without having to add 30 pounds of weight when fully geared, because there's some weight already built into it. Lots of times their rationale... Which is totally understandable... Is that they want a rig that can do it all, and do it all well. DIR teaches that you want to have the same basic setup for all of your dives, so that you can master the basics and get really good at what you do. It only makes sense. Yet, the tropical diver may miss the pull dump from his other rig, for example, or the adjustability while wearing the rig. It simply depends on what you're diving, and what you prefer.

DIR goes one step further, though... Keep in mind that owning and using both a bp/wing and another rig means that you're always changing your gear around. This works against the concept of "the mastery of the basics, since "the basics" are always changing. So they don't recommend that... They recommend getting to know one set of gear really, really well. And getting to know your buddy's gear... Which ultimately should be the same as yours, so that you can operate it in an emergency... Really, really well.

I don't see either side of the DIR "coin" as bad. But I see representatives from both sides acting poorly and being basically intolerant.

In my humble experience, the only way to learn something is with an open mind, open ears, and open eyes. Everyone here... DIR guys and non-DIR guys alike... Have things that they bring to the scuba table. Look, listen, read, and learn. From everyone. Remember that the person that stops learning is the first person who doesn't get any new skills. And we all want those, right?

...So I support NOT having a seperate DIR forum. If there had been one, I don't think I personally would have gone over there. I think I'd have been offended by some putz claiming to be DIR, and I'd have bailed, and I'd have missed the opportunity to experience some of the great things that DIR people have to teach.

I still don't think that a bp/wing is the magical, mystical answer to everyone's buoyancy problems. I don't think a bp/wing can raise the dead, walk on water, or even make coffee for you in the morning. But I can tell you that I found it to be tops in buoyancy performance over anything else I've ever tried. I can also tell you that I don't think that I will be using one for my single tank diving. I simply would miss some of the features that "mainstream" BC's have... Even if some supposed DIR guy thinks that I'm going to die because I like the Scubapro Classic Plus. It all really depends on the circumstance.

And that officially makes me NOT DIR... But there's a lot of great info to be learned in there, and I can assure you that I'll be putting it to good use.

 

[raybo]

Sorry Seajay...at least we're not bickering!

I sail a Santana 20, pretty good bunch of J24s, anS2 7.9's, lot of Catalina 25's & 27's. The northern lake is Heron Res near Chama. The 22-30 foot range is most prevalant. We have about 150 slips in the Marina and that many on a waiting list!

This is our club website if you're interested; .http://www.nmsail.org/

Elephant Butte is the southern lake. When it's full, It's almost 40 mile long, and about 3 wide at it's widest, but the main lake is about 12-13 long. We hold a 50 mile race there in the fall. Lot of boats in the 25-35 ft range there.

Our Commodore was out for the Widbey Isalnd Race last summer. Had a blast. I have a business assoiciate that grew up in the Sea/tTac area. Said the diving was incredible. UP, I do need to get there sometime. Got a drysuit so I could dive the west coast. Til now, it's always been the Carribean. It's nice, but there's a lot more of the world to see. Looking forward to it.

Where do we dive? Well, most peope in the southwest have heard of Blue Hole in Santa Rosa NM. It's a limestone sinkhole about 75' across, almost perfect circle, 85' to the grate that covers the entrance to the cave. That's right~cave. It's used by clubs/shops throughout KS,OK,CO,TX, & NM for training mostly. It's spring fed, so it's 62 deg year round, and if there aren't too many OW classes in it, vis can be that whole 85'.

In the same area there's a couple of other larger/deeper holes, but they're on private ground, and a little more limited in access. Haven't been to it yet, but guess one has a wrecked plane in it. Think that's where we'll be doing the OW for the S&R class I'm signed up for.

When they're full (we're in a bad drought) and early in the year, both the lakes I sail at can have 15-20 ft vis. Not bad for fresh water.

I've started looking at the topo map for some of the high altitude natural lakes as well. I'm a trout fisherman , and want to get some good photos of trout in the water. It'll be an excursion to get there, though. Some of them either don't have roads or very primitive ones, so it'll be ATV, horse or humpijg it. (Rereading what i just wrote ~ that's almost sick isn't it?)

Have also heard there are other cave sites with water in the SE part of the state. (Ever heard of Carlsbad Cavern~ can't get in there,of course, but I've heard there are some others that areaournd down there) Will probably progress to that if it's true.

Going Ice diving the first weekend of February in Colorado.

There's another guy on the boards I found from here. We're trying to get together to go to Blue Hole to get used to buddying together and see what happens.

I'm just getting back to being more active after a lot of years just being one of those "vacation"divers. So... it's not what a lot of people would think of as desireable, but it's what I have, and I intend to make the best of it. Have set a goal to get in the water at least once amonth. May not seem like much to most of the people here, but for me and where I am, not always an easy goal to achieve if I want to vary the sites.

Will do Blue Hole regularly to work on skill development. That'll be where the DIR-F class will be if it happens.

 

[SeaJay]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

yes.... we strayed off the original topic.... that happens once a thread goes past 2 pages...

Nice report Seajay... you will learn a ton in the DIRf.

Hey, thanks, UP...

Yeah, I can't wait for DIR-F.

 

[ckharlan66]

SeaJay once bubbled...


Heya, Wendy! Longtimnosee!

Yes, that's the picture that I'm talking about. The one from the BAUE website. By saying, "The middle of the chest," I mean, "Centered between the pectoral muscles." Sure, it's held a little higher than that, but on my rig, my secondary's hose was a little short, and my necklace was a little short... So my secondary stayed basically right over my right D-ring. It pretty much got in the way most of the time.

It's true that I could have gotten a better fit with a slightly longer hose and a slightly longer necklace... But I still don't think I'd be much of a fan of the necklace. At least, I don't think so. One of the terrific things about a bp/wing is the totally clean chest area, free of buckles, padding, straps, and other junk. It's pretty cool to be trimmed and buoyanced properly, and floating like that without any visible support. I enjoyed it quite a bit. And I believe that the necklace would detract from that a little. I also believe that while deployment of my donor reg was terribly time-sensitive, deployment of my secondary air source was much less hurried. So I think I would prefer a secondary secured elsewhere besides where I felt it was basically "in my face."

But hey, I'll keep an open mind... And maybe I'll get the opportunity to try a better-sized secondary at the DIR-F class.

There's something else that I'd like to say, too, about some of the subjects that y'all have been talking about...

Firstly, I can understand how non-DIR people may be in support of a specialized DIR forum. Sure, I, too, have felt "beat up" by DIR people. And the DIR people feel "beat up" by many others, especially those who have just recently been taught that jacket BC's are best, and that PADI teaches a long primary, short secondary, and that you donate the secondary. I really do understand both sides of the coin.

There are a few things, though, that I think are important to bring to light here, though, in this slow-burn flame war that's been going on between DIR supporters and nonsupporters.

Firstly, keep in mind that this is an Internet forum, and that anyone can sign on here, be whoever they want, and basically stretch the truth a little about their dive skills. DIR guys are well respected by those who know professional scuba diving, including the Underwater Explorers, Global Underwater Explorers, and the American Academy of Underwater Sciences. Even the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is familiar with the concepts of DIR, and many DIR supporters hold world records in scuba diving. In short, it's very "cool" to be a supporter of DIR, and many people who aren't exactly honest about their credentials can come here and basically claim to be DIR, and basically feel "superior" to other newbies. I see it happening a lot, and these people will criticize other divers. Thus, DIR can sometimes get a bad "rep" for being hypercritical of non-DIR divers. My experience with real DIR divers is that they're a little gunshy of non-DIR divers, because they're so accustomed to taking the backlash of that.

So to those non-DIR people who are a bit cynical and tired of having every topic turn into a DIR debate, remember that real DIR people really don't criticize others... They, like you, simply have a favorite way of diving. If you want real DIR information, then pick up the DIR fundementals book and read it. I am now, and frankly, it's really surprising what I'm reading.

To those people who are DIR... Please remember that the person immediately giving you sht about DIR probably just got reprimanded by some idiot who yelled at them for wearing the wrong color. Be patient with them, please, and remember that your chosen way to dive is not everyone's. Open minds work both ways, and there is no harm in seeing both points of view, and helping others to see both points of view. Remember that the "experts" in the newbie's eyes... Their instructors and their LDS... Have basically engrained in them that a certain brand of gear is the best and that "cult" groups like DIR guys are zealots. It's up to you to prove otherwise, so don't fall into the trap of the argument.

For everyone: If you are not yet a certified Advanced Open Water diver or higher, then please hold your opinions to yourself until you see the "PADI Advanced Open Water rig recommendation" on page eight (I think) of the PADI Advanced Open Water book. It looks surprisingly close to what DIR is teaching. DIR is not a different avenue than PADI... It's more of an enhancement. It's not about "doing things differently," and it's not about "going technical." It's simply the study and the mastery of the basics. The rig is only one-third of the equation... The other two thirds... Well... Just read the book. There's lots and lots of great information in there that can be used by any diver, even if you don't decide to dive a DIR rig. Heck, just the optional finning techniques are worth the price of the book.

Last of all, keep in mind that the way that one person dives may be totally different than the way another person dives. Sure, there's the obvious differences in opinion, but even more distinct, and not so obvious over the Internet, is the fact that many people do many different things while diving in many different conditions. For example, a tropical diver will likely prefer a minimalist wetsuit, a simple rig, and very little weight. Key things of importance to him might be ease of assembly, the ability to "hang" a BC on a tank while putting it together on a rocking boat, and he may want a place to put his camera. He may choose to dive with a computer because he is looking at marine life as a major event of the dive, which may be at unknonwn varying depths. This diver may never own a canister light, wear doubles, or need to dive with 20+ pounds because of the inherent buoyancy in his drysuit. This diver may not see the advantage in a "rig that does it all well," but instead would only want the rig that does what he does the best.

Conversely, imagine someone trying to clip off two stage bottles, a set of doubles, a scooter, and a canister light to your average, run-of-the-mill rental BC. Frankly, a bp/wing can do that, and can also do the tropical thing... And can do it without having to add 30 pounds of weight when fully geared, because there's some weight already built into it. Lots of times their rationale... Which is totally understandable... Is that they want a rig that can do it all, and do it all well. DIR teaches that you want to have the same basic setup for all of your dives, so that you can master the basics and get really good at what you do. It only makes sense. Yet, the tropical diver may miss the pull dump from his other rig, for example, or the adjustability while wearing the rig. It simply depends on what you're diving, and what you prefer.

DIR goes one step further, though... Keep in mind that owning and using both a bp/wing and another rig means that you're always changing your gear around. This works against the concept of "the mastery of the basics, since "the basics" are always changing. So they don't recommend that... They recommend getting to know one set of gear really, really well. And getting to know your buddy's gear... Which ultimately should be the same as yours, so that you can operate it in an emergency... Really, really well.

I don't see either side of the DIR "coin" as bad. But I see representatives from both sides acting poorly and being basically intolerant.

In my humble experience, the only way to learn something is with an open mind, open ears, and open eyes. Everyone here... DIR guys and non-DIR guys alike... Have things that they bring to the scuba table. Look, listen, read, and learn. From everyone. Remember that the person that stops learning is the first person who doesn't get any new skills. And we all want those, right?

...So I support NOT having a seperate DIR forum. If there had been one, I don't think I personally would have gone over there. I think I'd have been offended by some putz claiming to be DIR, and I'd have bailed, and I'd have missed the opportunity to experience some of the great things that DIR people have to teach.

I still don't think that a bp/wing is the magical, mystical answer to everyone's buoyancy problems. I don't think a bp/wing can raise the dead, walk on water, or even make coffee for you in the morning. But I can tell you that I found it to be tops in buoyancy performance over anything else I've ever tried. I can also tell you that I don't think that I will be using one for my single tank diving. I simply would miss some of the features that "mainstream" BC's have... Even if some supposed DIR guy thinks that I'm going to die because I like the Scubapro Classic Plus. It all really depends on the circumstance.

And that officially makes me NOT DIR... But there's a lot of great info to be learned in there, and I can assure you that I'll be putting it to good use.