Mid-Range BP/W Suggestions for Newbie

[Entacmaea]

Thanks Rivers- can you explain how the Hollis elite 2 is not a "one piece" harness? I don't know the difference. I also saw this one: Backplate, Harness and Wing Systems (BPW) by Dive Rite - Dive Gear Express like the padding on both this one and the Hollis, as well as the black connector buckles. I don't mind paying the extra $40 for these- and I don't need to put it together like the HOG (not that it is that much of a pain.) The HOG wing you suggest looks great- and cheaper than the DSS one. I'm looking to get a slightly longer regulator tube (maybe 16" instead of 12") for the inline octo.

Regarding the integrated octo- talked to a lot of people about it, and a dive instructor I worked with uses one when he dives(not when he is instructing students). One less hose I guess. I'm looking to streamline as much as I can, since I want to be able to focus on photography when I'm on the bottom. If you have any insights into them- I'm all ears.

One question I have is with these BP- many don't list whether you need an STA or not? The DSS plates specifically say you don't, but others don't say one way or the other. They all look like they have the tank strap holes already, so how do I tell which need STA's? Someone just suggested that you can add an STA anyway, for the extra weight for cold water diving.

Interestingly, also see one of the Dive Rite Wings can be used for both singles and doubles- which would mean no need to purchase another wing down the line(?):

[h=3]DR Rec EXP Wing ({45 lb | 20.4 kg} Lift)[/h]

 

[Keith.M]

As far as your weight, I think you will be surprised.

I am about the same size as your are, 5'9" and 185.

I started with 28 lbs of weight with my gear.

After my first dive, I added another 4 lbs. of ankle weights.

Now with 46 dives, I have long dropped the ankle weights and have removed another two pounds to bring me down to 26. You may still need a little more just because I dive a 7mm one piece and you have the 6.5 mil two piece.

I'd also think twice about the integrated octo. I don't really care for how long it makes it and the way it hangs down while trimmed.

Considering going with the 7' hose on the primary and an octo on a bungeed necklass. But I will probably dive what I have for a while now before making any changes, just because of financial restraint.

 

[Nwcid]

The other thing is to wait 3 weeks before buying anything right now. There are some AMAZING Black Friday sales to be had usually. HOG especially.

 

[Slater]

Your doing the right thing ask lots of questions, then ask some more!!!
What you think you want, will change many times especially with the bp&w config..
I personally would have another hose rather than dealing with a f%$@ed-up looking bulky musical instrument hanging from my lp inflator hose..
I lucked out & when DRIS webbed my elite II it was very close to perfect & had to make minor adjustments to relocate the plate higher on my back but all the d-rings & shoulder pads makes minor adjustments a pain. I would never want to web one, poor Rich....
New to diving you think you want the cinch adjustments as your rental bc has, so you can crank that bc down tight around you, thats not the case with a BP&W
I love my HOG 32 & wouldnt dive anything else unless ofcoarse I get a killer deal on a HOG 23 during blackfriday if youre watching this Mike....haha
Took my ss bp&w to Cabo just last month & it will be visiting Cozumel on Monday!

Like we discussed, BlackFriday will make youre decision easier...

 

[maniago]

I backed away from a plate and wing as my first rig and went with a Balance back inflate. I'm glad I did as it works perfect for me. I dive a 8/7mil semi-dry, 100cu steel, 19cu pony, AND an AirSource2, with 7.5lbs Pb in fresh water. I love the Airsource, no joke. It naturally fits in my left hand where both hands fall when finning, at mid-rift. So I just keep it in that hand. Totally natural length. And that's crap that it hangs down. Does nothing of the sort, even when I'm upside down turning over rocks to find cray fish to feed the bass. It has no weight in the water and stays where its put. It breathes as good as my octo on the pony, and you can squeak in air to the BCD like using a faucet vs the on/off mode of my previous inflator.

My wife dives the same gear I do, minus the pony. Kicks a$$ for her too.

All I'd say is make sure you try the stuff you want to buy before you do, if you can. Too many people poo-poo stuff they've never tried. BS flag.

AOW in two weeks! Can't wait!

 

[SangP]

Thanks all- I checked out DSS and will check in with Tobin. To answer some questions, diving in Monterey with an AL80 and two piece 6.5mil suits, I had 34lbs on me, which was about perfect. Budget- mid range, I'd say I'm willing to spend $6-700 on the BP/W setup. Inline Octo run $150-200, so $500 for the BP/W with the octo is about right. I could go a little higher. Thanks SangP for the weight pocket suggestions- those are perfect and exactly what I was looking for.

These questions DSS may be able to answer, but I'll post them here as well:

1) There doesn't seem to be any padding or cushioning on the OSS harness. How comfortable is the harness on the shoulders without padding? I found this, which has padding: Hollis Elite 2 Scuba Harness 208.1222 with reviews at scuba.com
2) Same for the BP- the OSS one looks flat- is this ideal and are they comfortable? Or are there BP's that curve to your back more comfortable (assuming they have to be relatively straight for tank mounting...)? Found some BP pads out there, which might solve the issue (and 7mil wetsuits are padding in and of themselves!)
3) The OSS Pro fit medium backplates say they are usable for doubles as well. So, all I would need would be a doubles wing (and the stuff for double tanks of course)?
4) What are "wedge blocks" on the OSS set-up? Couldn't find them on the website anywhere..

Thanks all- getting closer!

Best, Peter

Thanks Rivers- can you explain how the Hollis elite 2 is not a "one piece" harness? I don't know the difference. I also saw this one: Backplate, Harness and Wing Systems (BPW) by Dive Rite - Dive Gear Express like the padding on both this one and the Hollis, as well as the black connector buckles. I don't mind paying the extra $40 for these- and I don't need to put it together like the HOG (not that it is that much of a pain.) The HOG wing you suggest looks great- and cheaper than the DSS one. I'm looking to get a slightly longer regulator tube (maybe 16" instead of 12") for the inline octo.

Regarding the integrated octo- talked to a lot of people about it, and a dive instructor I worked with uses one when he dives(not when he is instructing students). One less hose I guess. I'm looking to streamline as much as I can, since I want to be able to focus on photography when I'm on the bottom. If you have any insights into them- I'm all ears.

One question I have is with these BP- many don't list whether you need an STA or not? The DSS plates specifically say you don't, but others don't say one way or the other. They all look like they have the tank strap holes already, so how do I tell which need STA's? Someone just suggested that you can add an STA anyway, for the extra weight for cold water diving.

Interestingly, also see one of the Dive Rite Wings can be used for both singles and doubles- which would mean no need to purchase another wing down the line(?):

DR Rec EXP Wing ({45 lb | 20.4 kg} Lift)

I'll try to answer some of your questions:
1. The padding on the harness was designed first for the purposes of carrying the gear for long distances. Like a backpack the diverite transpac was designed for that. In a 6.5mm suit you'll be perfectly comfortable without any padding however, if you use a doubles setup you will feel some pressure and if you really wanted, a pair of shoulder pads.
I use these Tatonka Shoulder Pad 50mm - 25 x 6 cm, Black lol!
You don't need a lumbar pad at all don't worry about the lack of padding etc, till you try a simple harness on you won't know just how comfortable it is .

2. Don't worry about the flatness of the plate, there was a a plate called the freedom plate however, they seem to be out of production.
Not that I recommend a halcyon bp/w but here are some pics of pp diving without suits:

Ok ok the last photo is just for fun lol!!!

3. For doubles you'll need a doubles wing.

4. The wedge blocks just secures the cam bands better, the rubber makes the cam bands sit better on the plate.

5. I won't recommend the octo/inflator setup cus in panic mode a diver could accidentally hit the inflator button and send both you and your buddy in an uncontrolled accent. A shorter 14" inflator hose + a dedicated octo is advisable.
You could get a standard 2nd stage regulator for just $110 -$140
HOG Switchback Reversible 2nd Stage
HOG 2nd Stage Regulator

6. The DSS plates don't need an sta cus their singles wings already have an inbuit sta
The block in the center of the plate is the sta


7. The last q finally lol! Don't try n get a dual use wing, cus it'll be too big for a single tank but too small for a doubles setup. You could go read all the reviews of pp who have used such a wing... not worth the $

 

[Entacmaea]

Thanks all, and for the pics SangP I never thought about panicked buddy working the wrong buttons on the integrated octo- that is a good observation. I will have to do a little more research. I still like the streamlining idea and one less hose, but only if it doesn't detract from safety. And yes, I guess the dual-purpose single/double wing is probably one of those things where it may be too much compromise on either end? However, I'm assuming the plate will still be able to work for singles and doubles, correct?

For diving in cold water CA, my local dive shop also steered me away from layering suits. Again, my (naive?) thought was to buy a 5mm full suit for warm water (I got cold in a 3mm in Hawaii, hence going to 5mm), then when I dive in Monterey add a 5-7mm hooded vest or shortie. They basically said that wouldn't work because layering suits doesn't work- it is not like layering clothes to stay warm. This is odd since they put me in a 6.5mm farmer john, and a 6.5 shortie for my rental gear. They said that the 1.5mm difference in the first layer makes all the difference...?

I've had about 5 people tell me to wait until black friday to buy stuff- I guess that is the thing to do! Hopefully there will be some steals out there.

 

[fnfalman]

I'm looking to get a slightly longer regulator tube (maybe 16" instead of 12") for the inline octo.

It's called "corrugated hose". Also 16" is not really long enough for the inline octo. You would want to take your BC to a shop, throw a tank and reg on it then mount it on your back to see how long of a corrugated hose you'd need to effectively use an inline octo. I'm thinking minimum of 18" and more than likely 22". It's long and if you're not good with trim and buoyancy control, it'd drag on the sand. The convenience of not having a separate octo is offset by more difficulty of use and the aforementioned issue. I like the inline octo and that's what I use but I also know about the inherent disadvantages.

One question I have is with these BP- many don't list whether you need an STA or not? The DSS plates specifically say you don't, but others don't say one way or the other. They all look like they have the tank strap holes already, so how do I tell which need STA's? Someone just suggested that you can add an STA anyway, for the extra weight for cold water diving.

Some wings like DSS and I "think" Oxycheq have built in stubs to hold a single tank solid against the backplate thus do away the need for an STA. However, sometimes this configuration would have the tank sits too close to your back and you'd have the "regular bump head". Essentially you tilt your head up and it hits the first stage. The advantage of these wings is that you don't have to shell out for the cost of the STA. Of course having an STA does help mitigate the first stage reg head bump AND it does add a bit of weight (maybe 2lbs at most depends on how thick the steel used in the manufacture of the STA). How do you know you'd need an STA? Ask the manufacturer. Sometimes a manufacturer would say that an STA is suggested because you don't need an STA with any wing. It's just that the wings that don't have built-in STA/snubs/whatchamacallit would flop a bit if you don't use an STA.

Interestingly, also see one of the Dive Rite Wings can be used for both singles and doubles- which would mean no need to purchase another wing down the line(?):

DR Rec EXP Wing ({45 lb | 20.4 kg} Lift)

It's do-able, just too big and ungainly when you do single-tank dive. Remember the axiom about jack of all trades and master of none.

My recommendation is to with the smallest possible wing for whichever configuration. If you do double tank diving that usually means technical diving; unless somebody wanted to lug all that weight just to do rec diving, by that point, you have spent so much money that an extra three hundred bucks for a double tank wing is nothing.

---------- Post Merged at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:45 PM ----------

Thanks all, and for the pics SangP I never thought about panicked buddy working the wrong buttons on the integrated octo- that is a good observation. I will have to do a little more research. I still like the streamlining idea and one less hose, but only if it doesn't detract from safety.

It doesn't detract from safety. It's just different. You simply have to be proficient with your equipment configuration. Also, ask yourself what is the probability of you having to do a share air, especially as a non-diving professional. If I were a DM or an instructor, I'd probably go with a conventional octo because the possibility of encountering and helping distressed divers is a lot higher than if I were just joe schmoe diving for fun.

For diving in cold water CA, my local dive shop also steered me away from layering suits. Again, my (naive?) thought was to buy a 5mm full suit for warm water (I got cold in a 3mm in Hawaii, hence going to 5mm), then when I dive in Monterey add a 5-7mm hooded vest or shortie. They basically said that wouldn't work because layering suits doesn't work- it is not like layering clothes to stay warm. This is odd since they put me in a 6.5mm farmer john, and a 6.5 shortie for my rental gear. They said that the 1.5mm difference in the first layer makes all the difference...?

I've had about 5 people tell me to wait until black friday to buy stuff- I guess that is the thing to do! Hopefully there will be some steals out there.[/QUOTE]


Layering up does work but not very efficiently. I would get a 5mm for warm water diving and a 7mm farmer john for Cali diving. Then work up to a drysuit at a later date.

 

[SangP]

Thanks all, and for the pics SangP

I never thought about panicked buddy working the wrong buttons on the integrated octo- that is a good observation. I will have to do a little more research. I still like the streamlining idea and one less hose, but only if it doesn't detract from safety. And yes, I guess the dual-purpose single/double wing is probably one of those things where it may be too much compromise on either end? However, I'm assuming the plate will still be able to work for singles and doubles, correct?

For diving in cold water CA, my local dive shop also steered me away from layering suits. Again, my (naive?) thought was to buy a 5mm full suit for warm water (I got cold in a 3mm in Hawaii, hence going to 5mm), then when I dive in Monterey add a 5-7mm hooded vest or shortie. They basically said that wouldn't work because layering suits doesn't work- it is not like layering clothes to stay warm. This is odd since they put me in a 6.5mm farmer john, and a 6.5 shortie for my rental gear. They said that the 1.5mm difference in the first layer makes all the difference...?

I've had about 5 people tell me to wait until black friday to buy stuff- I guess that is the thing to do! Hopefully there will be some steals out there.

I'm sure you enjoyed some photos more then others lol!

Therein lies the main differences between rec and tech. In rec it works if it's cool, in tech its cool if it works.

We try to minimize gear too but not on the essentials. Regs, wings, hog harness, sturdy fins etc. The unnecessary are stuff like hub design (mares), integrated weight pockets, integrated compass, spg, computer, cumber bands etc etc.

At the same time we make room for redundancies, 2 cam bands instead of 1, 2 computers, backup mask.

The DIR crowd takes it even further.

Anyway, POV differences aside here are some more information:

This single tank tech setup for reference and explanation:

View attachment 139673
View attachment 139673

Typical Rec Setup

The diver on the left has the octo on the right while the diver on the right has the integrated oct/inflator setup.

It's called "corrugated hose". Also 16" is not really long enough for the inline octo. You would want to take your BC to a shop, throw a tank and reg on it then mount it on your back to see how long of a corrugated hose you'd need to effectively use an inline octo. I'm thinking minimum of 18" and more than likely 22". It's long and if you're not good with trim and buoyancy control, it'd drag on the sand. The convenience of not having a separate octo is offset by more difficulty of use and the aforementioned issue. I like the inline octo and that's what I use but I also know about the inherent disadvantages.

Even if your trim was perfect you'll have a 2 foot long regulator/bcd inflator dangling. Good luck taking macro photos with that elephant trunk dragging along the bottom.
Difficult to use? The tech setup has the octo on a bungee necklace around the neck, just how difficult is it to look down and put it onto your mouth?

What's wrong with this photo?

Rec out of air drill, notice how close both divers have to be to do it?
SSI Scuba Skills Update 23 - Air Sharing Ascent (Primary) - YouTube

Tech ooa drill
UTD Essentials of Recreational Diving DVD Skills Preview - S-Drill - YouTube

What could be simplier and safer?

Some wings like DSS and I "think" Oxycheq have built in stubs to hold a single tank solid against the backplate thus do away the need for an STA. However, sometimes this configuration would have the tank sits too close to your back and you'd have the "regular bump head". Essentially you tilt your head up and it hits the first stage. The advantage of these wings is that you don't have to shell out for the cost of the STA. Of course having an STA does help mitigate the first stage reg head bump AND it does add a bit of weight (maybe 2lbs at most depends on how thick the steel used in the manufacture of the STA). How do you know you'd need an STA? Ask the manufacturer. Sometimes a manufacturer would say that an STA is suggested because you don't need an STA with any wing. It's just that the wings that don't have built-in STA/snubs/whatchamacallit would flop a bit if you don't use an STA.

It's ironic that you mention about the bump head issue, when your transpac sits the tank even closer to the body...

Can you show me how much further a transpac sits a tank further away compared to a bp?
http://www.dive-rite.ru/imu/Image/08DiveRite/bcd/transpac12.jpg
http://www.yourdiverwarehouse.com/1612-790-thickbox/dive-rite-transpac-harness-2010-model.jpg

The only reason the head knocking may not happen is cus the transpac is a soft pack, it doesn't hold the tank as securely as a bp/w and will sag.

That's an accidental, not intentional design feature...

Anyway, Piranha Dive Mfg. occationally have the Black Friday deals where they really slash price.

As for suits, go for a 1 piece jumpsuit with a hood or a 2 piece farmer john. Forget the 3mm vest/hood + 3mm suit layering.

Cheers

 

[koozemani]

+1 on DSS. Tobin will answer all your questions and won't, I repeat won't, sell you something you don't need. Not that won't try to sell you something you don't need, he will flat out tell you no. At least he did with me, and I can't thank him enough for his advice.

As others have mentioned, padding is not necessary. In the water, you won't even know its there.

i can't answer anything about thicker wetsuits or dry suits because if I need more than a 5mm I'm calling a travel agent to get somewhere warmer.