Mid-Range BP/W Suggestions for Newbie

[eelnoraa]

Also, Yes, planning for a DIN use down the line as the tank I ultimately want to dive is a HP Steel 117. Can I get a Yoke first stage now and switch out the actual valve to a DIN when I buy an HP tank, or would I need to buy a whole new fist stage if I didn't want to perpetually dive with an adapter?

You don't need DIN for HP tank. Most HP tank sold today has thermal convertable valve, so people can use both DIN and Yoke on it. There is another reason for Yoke. If you travel, it is most likely what you will get. After all, I don't see any advantage of DIN in open water recreational dive. Other may swear by DIN in open water. My first reg was DIN, I hated it.

 

[fnfalman]

The continuing inline regulator debate! I guess it depends on the model that I get and its functions, the Airsource 3 does seem to have a dump valve to vent while using it, but others it is unclear. While I do think i would be able to master and adjusted technique to use one, I will have to ponder further.

That's the right way to do it. Do research, preferrably try them out (rental or maybe prevailing on a generous local diver's good will), think about what and how you want to dive then make the decision. After all, you're diving with your gears and you must have confidence in both the gear and the configuration. Don't choose it because I say so or others say so. Take all of our advises with a grain of salt.

Good to know about the HOG service issue- will have to check in with Bamboo Reef here to see what they service.

As I understand it, HOG regs are very simple, and any half way decent shop will service any reg. I stay away from the "boutiques" that only service "their" brands of gears.

Also, Yes, planning for a DIN use down the line as the tank I ultimately want to dive is a HP Steel 117. Can I get a Yoke first stage now and switch out the actual valve to a DIN when I buy an HP tank, or would I need to buy a whole new fist stage if I didn't want to perpetually dive with an adapter?

DIN or yolk, just flip a count. Really, it's that simple. And no, you don't need a DIN set up to use HP tanks.

 

[SangP]

It's a different configuration. If it's not better for you, then don't use it. You don't have to make sarcastic comments about it. Attitudes like yours is what turns people off from the DIR crowd. You may have a lot of good things to say, but people simply ignore your advice because of the holier-than-thou attitude.

But you don't "leave it at that", do you?

Nobody claims that it's better. Just different. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp.

It proves that you have another technique to work with. Another solution in your brain for an emergency.

Don't care. I'm not a tech diver, and neither is the OP.

It's not about tech or DIR but another way of solving potential problems. I'm open to various ideas so long as they function safely while you seem to keep rejecting anything related to tech.

Not diving with people who aren't skilled or care enough and run out of air?

Inattention and equipment malfunction are also the reasons, however, there isn't too many cases of equipment malfunctions IF the diver were to take care of the equipment. So, it's back to lack of skills and inattention.

True, rare that more likely then not it's the diver's lack of attention that results in an incident however, equipment failures do happen regardless and if you presume that only the inattentive suffer from that. A lot of very experience and very respected divers have experienced equipment failures.

No, TO ME, the STA is there to hold the tank tightly against the plate. The bump head issue is a bonus.

I don't know. I don't make it a point to go about and measure people's neck extensions then compare them to the heights of the various STAs available. I only know and care about my own configuration. Others are welcome to do their own research to find out which STA; if at all, would solve their head bump issue. Or maybe people simply don't care enough about head bump issue and go without STA. Don't know, don't care. Ain't my problem either way.

What I was trying to say in the first place was that the head bump issue isn't solved or mitigated by an sta. As long as you are talking about bp or a transpac a head bump more often than not is due to the either the plate being placed too high or the tank.

I'm 5' 11" and initially with my halcyon rig I too had a head bump problem till I realized I had made the shoulder straps too tight causing the plate to be too high and I had placed the tank too high as well. Solution, loosen the shoulder straps a bit, place the tank lower and ever since, even even bm a single tank on my self designed harness I get zero head bump,

You have some good information too however, let's agree to disagree on many points, no insult intended.

---------- Post Merged at 08:11 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:00 AM ----------

Hey all- looks like I am converging on a Dive Rite TransPlate System at divegearexpress- looks like it has all of what I am looking for- nice harness, wing, and dumpable weights for cold water. I'll probably go with the HOG regulator set up as well- best price I could find.

Doing a little more research, I like the underarm hose routing for the primary with a swivel elbow. The last remaining questions I have are about the inline octo. I feel better realizing that I give my primary away and I use the inline octo (using a longer hose on the primary)- which somewhat eases concerns about a panicked buddy pressing the wrong inflator buttons. But, while breathing on the inline octo, does it retain the ability to fill and vent the wing (Dive Rite Voyager EXP 35lb) to control ascent?

The setup from diverite is great rig, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

I'm curious why would you add a swivel elbow to your primary? With a longer hose like 5' or 7' and if you stowed the hose around the waist and around your neck, the reg would automatically be in an easy to use position for grab and share.
I use a swivel on my sm rigs and I say, it does add jaw fatigue cus it does add more weight onto the reg.

A lot of the inline octos I've seen allow you to inflate and breath at the same time.

 

[Entacmaea]

Thanks FnFalman and SangP- yup, going slow on the research and gathering all of the nuggets of wisdom displayed on this board. I am still leaning toward getting an inline octo, as long as I can find one that can *vent* the wing at the same time as breathing. Inflating I don't think is the largest issue on an ascent, assuming people are weighted correctly, we'll be kicking up with purpose : ) but venting to control the ascent is what I'm concerned about.

I've watched some videos on hose lengths and regulator setups, and have am currently considering a 40" for my primary and under the right arm routing, rather than the 5' or 7' routing which wraps the hose once around the body. Although I am not experienced enough to really have an informed opinion about this, having to go through the extra step of unwrapping the primary to donate it to a panicked buddy sounds unwise (I can hear the comments coming :blinking or it at least makes me uncomfortable. It seems like a panicking buddy could grab it and it could turn into a noose if wrapped around the body, or in trying to unwind it I could catch it on my mask or snorkel. So, with the 40" under the right arm routing they suggest a 90 degree elbow or swivel, which points the hose downward- the swivel in either they say makes the mask hose move more freely and thus it is easier to turn your head. That's what I've learned, and am ready to unlearn it given more information- kind like the DIN valve...

 

[SangP]

Thanks FnFalman and SangP- yup, going slow on the research and gathering all of the nuggets of wisdom displayed on this board. I am still leaning toward getting an inline octo, as long as I can find one that can *vent* the wing at the same time as breathing. Inflating I don't think is the largest issue on an ascent, assuming people are weighted correctly, we'll be kicking up with purpose : ) but venting to control the ascent is what I'm concerned about.

I've watched some videos on hose lengths and regulator setups, and have am currently considering a 40" for my primary and under the right arm routing, rather than the 5' or 7' routing which wraps the hose once around the body. Although I am not experienced enough to really have an informed opinion about this, having to go through the extra step of unwrapping the primary to donate it to a panicked buddy sounds unwise (I can hear the comments coming :blinking or it at least makes me uncomfortable. It seems like a panicking buddy could grab it and it could turn into a noose if wrapped around the body, or in trying to unwind it I could catch it on my mask or snorkel. So, with the 40" under the right arm routing they suggest a 90 degree elbow or swivel, which points the hose downward- the swivel in either they say makes the mask hose move more freely and thus it is easier to turn your head. That's what I've learned, and am ready to unlearn it given more information- kind like the DIN valve...

As you can see there are many differing views on what works and what doesn't. What I would recommend is before getting your setup you could go and dive with different groups of divers from rec to tech etc just to learn the differences. Till you actually do it yourself, saying one method is better then another is counter productive.

I did use an inline octo while doing an ooa drill with a female diver and got really close to her lol! If I had to do it with her oversize buddy I think I'll pass lol!

Call it weird but if my octo was an inline one, I would be silently cursing the bugger who has just run out of air and is breathing from my nice shiny reg while I have to use the inline octo.

 

[Colliam7]

. . . looks like I am converging on a Dive Rite TransPlate System at divegearexpress- looks like it has all of what I am looking for- nice harness, wing, and dumpable weights for cold water.

Reasonable system, DGE people are good to deal with, online or in person. I am curious - why the Transplate (other than the padding)? Nothing wrong with it, I used one (borrowed) several times before buying a BP. But, unnecessary padding, fixed position shoulder D-rings, substantially more expensive than the DGE Dive Rite Harness/Plate/Wing package (even considering the added cost of weight pockets with that rig), etc. Just curious.

So, with the 40" under the right arm routing they suggest a 90 degree elbow or swivel, which points the hose downward- the swivel in either they say makes the mask hose move more freely and thus it is easier to turn your head.

Go with the 360 degree omniswivel, rather than the 90 degree elbow. A bit more expensive, but much more versatile.

Can I get a Yoke first stage now and switch out the actual valve to a DIN when I buy an HP tank, or would I need to buy a whole new fist stage if I didn't want to perpetually dive with an adapter?

Yes, most regulator first stages can be easily and quickly converted from yoke to DIN - usually a matter of removing the yoke clamp (A-clamp), swapping the yoke bolt for a DIN bolt, and adding a handwheel. Takes about 60 seconds to do. Make sure whatever reg you select can be converted, however, before you buy it. There are a few that cannot be easily converted.

 

[tracydr]

Thanks all, and for the pics SangP I never thought about panicked buddy working the wrong buttons on the integrated octo- that is a good observation. I will have to do a little more research. I still like the streamlining idea and one less hose, but only if it doesn't detract from safety. And yes, I guess the dual-purpose single/double wing is probably one of those things where it may be too much compromise on either end? However, I'm assuming the plate will still be able to work for singles and doubles, correct?

For diving in cold water CA, my local dive shop also steered me away from layering suits. Again, my (naive?) thought was to buy a 5mm full suit for warm water (I got cold in a 3mm in Hawaii, hence going to 5mm), then when I dive in Monterey add a 5-7mm hooded vest or shortie. They basically said that wouldn't work because layering suits doesn't work- it is not like layering clothes to stay warm. This is odd since they put me in a 6.5mm farmer john, and a 6.5 shortie for my rental gear. They said that the 1.5mm difference in the first layer makes all the difference...?

I've had about 5 people tell me to wait until black friday to buy stuff- I guess that is the thing to do! Hopefully there will be some steals out there.

I find the non-padded one piece harness completely comfortable. I also was able to put it together by myself without any problems, using You-Tube videos. I called DSS once with a question. I'm as non-mechanical as they come and didn't even ask my mechanic/engineer husband for help!
I would recommend considering the "Glide" addition, which I'm going to add to my harness, for easier small adjustments, if you change suits frequently.
As for the octo/Air-2, I'd really consider the bungeed system. If you research the amount of thought that's gone into the DIR system, you'll start to understand that there is simply no other air-sharing system that makes as much sense. And, as far as streamlined, what is more streamlined than something strapped around your neck?
There are many DIR divers in your area who would probably be willing to go for a few dives with you and show you their gear. I've found that the DIR divers are incredibly helpful and knowledgable. You may find a wonderful mentor or even a great dive group in your area!
I was able to find a couple of divers who were DIR/tech trained that allowed me to try their BP/wings. This helped me to decide on a system before purchasing. I'm very, very happy with my decision, not to mention I have some new dive buddies.

---------- Post Merged at 09:08 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:01 AM ----------

A few things: 1) Shoulder pads can always be added latter if you want. They run about $15-$35. 2) Unless you purchase an older plate most modern plates have slots for cam bands and can be used without a STA. Consequently it is the wing that usually determines if you need an STA. 3) You can also add a weighted STA to add about 6 lbs of non-ditchable weight. 4) For cold water diving you will probably need a wing with 35-40 lbs of lift. 5) Golem is another brand that has a good reputation.

If he goes with DSS, Tobin will help him to decide what size wing he will need.
I didn't need anywhere near a 40 pound wing for my cold water diving. I got an 18 lb, although I considered the next size up. The 18 lb has been perfect. I dive pretty light and Tobin helped me to figure it all out. He took into account the type of tank that I use most of the time and what undergarment I usually dive with.

---------- Post Merged at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:01 AM ----------

Hey all- looks like I am converging on a Dive Rite TransPlate System at divegearexpress- looks like it has all of what I am looking for- nice harness, wing, and dumpable weights for cold water. I'll probably go with the HOG regulator set up as well- best price I could find.

Doing a little more research, I like the underarm hose routing for the primary with a swivel elbow. The last remaining questions I have are about the inline octo. I feel better realizing that I give my primary away and I use the inline octo (using a longer hose on the primary)- which somewhat eases concerns about a panicked buddy pressing the wrong inflator buttons. But, while breathing on the inline octo, does it retain the ability to fill and vent the wing (Dive Rite Voyager EXP 35lb) to control ascent?

One of the things I don't like about using an in-line octo is that you have to take your BC in when you want to have your reg serviced. Probably not a big issue but just something to think about.

BTW, any extra padding will increase the amount of weight you will need to dive with. Remeber, padding floats.

 

[fnfalman]

It's not about tech or DIR but another way of solving potential problems. I'm open to various ideas so long as they function safely while you seem to keep rejecting anything related to tech.

I am not rejecting anything related to tech, otherwise I wouldn't be diving a BPW. I have tried several configurations and have decided what's best for me.

You put in your two cents and I put in my two cents. The OP and other new divers can do with the information as they wish. I simply don't want them to think that there is only one way to dive or one way to rig their equipment.

True, rare that more likely then not it's the diver's lack of attention that results in an incident however, equipment failures do happen regardless and if you presume that only the inattentive suffer from that. A lot of very experience and very respected divers have experienced equipment failures.

And they are well trained to resolve those issues as well.

What I was trying to say in the first place was that the head bump issue isn't solved or mitigated by an sta.

And what I'm trying to say is that sometimes the STA does help with the head bump issue. It wouldn't be my first solution, but it'd be a bonus, and you don't know until you slap one on your rig and try it out. I prefer the STA so that the tank doesn't flop and solving the head bump issue is but frosting on top of cake for me.

As long as you are talking about bp or a transpac a head bump more often than not is due to the either the plate being placed too high or the tank.

No disagreement there. That's why the divers need to rig their gears then dive with an observer to help check on trim and etc.

 

[eelnoraa]

I find the non-padded one piece harness completely comfortable.

I definitely agree with this, but I also recently realize this isn't for everyone. I have a friend that switch from Halcyon Eclipse back to conventional back inflator BCD. I was puzzled at first, but did get to understand his reason later. So OP will have to decide.

Have that said, I will suggest you start with a one piece harness, find a local DIR diver to help you fit it, do a few dives. If you still feel you need the padding and adjustable harness, then buy the transplate. One piece harness is inexpansive, small price to pay for testing it out.

 

[fnfalman]

I am still leaning toward getting an inline octo, as long as I can find one that can *vent* the wing at the same time as breathing. Inflating I don't think is the largest issue on an ascent, assuming people are weighted correctly, we'll be kicking up with purpose : ) but venting to control the ascent is what I'm concerned about.

I'd like to hear more from the posters who have posted how they can vent and breath at the same time with the Air3. Who makes the Air3? Scubapro only shows the Air2 which I'm familiar with. As far as inflating on ascend, it may be needed because the OOA diver is truly OOA and there's not enough air in his/her BC to begin ascend even with ditched weights. You'd have to use your BC to bring both of you up until there's enough wetsuit expansion/air expansion to begin deflating both persons' BCs.

Taking the inline octo out of your mouth to vent isn't that big of a deal IF you've practiced multiple times with your equipment configuration AND you're somewhat skilled diver. With so little dives under your belt right now, even if you're in DIR configuration, it'd still be tough to rescue somebody. Equipment does not take precedence over training and experience. Equipment does help, but never a replacement for training and experience.

If you're that worried then get a short LP hose with a regular octo and sling it around your neck. It's out of the way and there for you. I have an octo on a short hose like that in my kit bag if I were to dive with people whom I am unsure about their skills.

The question is simply this: do you prefer one less hose or do you prefer ease of sharing air? If you like the former then KNOW its limitations. If you like the latter, then you know what you gotta do.

I've watched some videos on hose lengths and regulator setups, and have am currently considering a 40" for my primary and under the right arm routing, rather than the 5' or 7' routing which wraps the hose once around the body.

The 5ft-7ft hose was meant to deal with tech divers. In wrecks or caves situation where one diver would need to trail the octo back to the front or rear diver. Or even in open water, they'd usually pack double tanks and maybe a third or fourth deco/bailout tanks too, so separation is nice.

As a rec diver, most of these things don't apply to you. I use the 40" Miflex hose. It's highly flexible and it gives me plenty of extension from my sharing air partner. Also, depends on which diving philosophy you adhere to, having a distressed diver close to you isn't necessarily "bad". Body contact tends to calm down the distressed diver. I've taken rescue classes from PADI and NAUI. They all advocate keeping the distressed diver close to you so that you can calm them down and help control them since that they may just say the heck with it and quit doing anything. Obviously the technical divers are a lot better trained and conditioned. They'd prefer to swim side by side but further apart.

There's a reason why tech diving technique is a lot different than rec diving technique.

Although I am not experienced enough to really have an informed opinion about this, having to go through the extra step of unwrapping the primary to donate it to a panicked buddy sounds unwise (I can hear the comments coming :blinking or it at least makes me uncomfortable. It seems like a panicking buddy could grab it and it could turn into a noose if wrapped around the body, or in trying to unwind it I could catch it on my mask or snorkel.

Once again, it's all about training and practicing with your configuration. And yes, for a rec diver, especially an inexperienced one, having all those hoses around is a disaster. I've seen it.

So, with the 40" under the right arm routing they suggest a 90 degree elbow or swivel, which points the hose downward- the swivel in either they say makes the mask hose move more freely and thus it is easier to turn your head. That's what I've learned, and am ready to unlearn it given more information- kind like the DIN valve...

I've seen this configuration done. It keeps the 40" hose under your arm and out of the way so that there'd be less entanglement possibility (though as a rec diver, I can't imagine what entanglements you'd encounter). And sometimes it does help with relieving the stress on your jaws.

I use the 40" Miflex hose, but I just let it loop outside. I've been diving this configuration for four years now in California water. I have yet to have that hose snag on anything, be it boulders or giant kelps.

Once again, it's back to you and your preference. See if the shop would rent you one of these regs with the 90-degree elbow and see how it feels for you.

Whatever method and configuration you choose, I'll say it again and again: practice, practice, practice and then practice some more. Don't wait until an emergency comes and try to do things. You can be all geared and rigged out like Mr. GUE because the cool cats told you that it's the safest and best configuration, but you've never practiced donating air or rescue attempts, then it means nothing.

But you know what's the best way to solve emergencies? Don't have them in the first place. That means you dive within your comfort zone until you're ready to push your comfort zone bubbles a bit and expand the boundary. That means you choose your dive buddies most judiciously and make sure they understand your needs and you understand theirs.

My first dive buddy was a 500-dives person. He was a very skilled diver but he was a crappy buddy and mentor.