Newbie finally chasing dream

[bottomfeeder22]

Hey all, I've been wanting to start u/w video for years, but $$ has held me back. I've been lucky enough to snag a great job within my company making more $$ and working half the time, so now's the time to chase the dream. I've been researching around here and wetpixel, but still haven't found exactly what I'm looking for, hopefully the pros can help me out. Here's what I'm looking for, and conditions:

I'm a warm, clear water diver all the way. Keys, Caribbean, east FL, about the "dirtiest" I'll get is Pensacola. That said, would I even need lights? Maybe just for the deeper wreck dives, the Grove, Duane, O, etc?

Some macro, but mostly just diving w/ the guys type of shots.

Budget for camera/housing is $5-6K.

Don't really know much about the benefits of manual vs. electronic housings, I would like to be able to see what I'm filming, but would also like to have as little electronics as possible for lower failure points.

I'm still learning about formats, but am not too worried about PC horsepower; I'm an IT geek and will be building a monster PC in the coming year, so I'm looking for best quality here.

When everything's said and done, I'd like to be able to watch my vids on my PS3 w/ blu ray on a 52" Samsung LCD HDTV.

I've read up a bit on the HC7, FX7, and would appreciate inputs on those, as well as other brands/models.

The ability to snap a high quality still mid-video is required also.

Any comments/suggestions are welcome.

 

[diversteve]

Some rambling comments on a lazy Sunday afternoon...:

An FX7 is $2K (Adorama has one) - although it's discontinued. Rumor has it Sony might be re-releasing it this winter.

It's pretty much either/or on the Electronic vs. Mechanical choice. There are some e-housings with a few mechanical controls but no mechanical housings have any electronics. With the exception of external monitor options.

So a Gates housing for the FX7 is a minimum of $4000 - more if you want a better front port. Add $2000-3000 for lights. Amphibico's Endeavor housing for it starts at $5K as an electronic alternative at the same quality level. afaik, Light & Motion never made an FX7 housing.

Marinevisions has the Gates with a standard port and a set of Nightrider 40's for $7200. Are you including lights in the $5-6K?
Ronscuba (he'll likely see this and reply) here shoots the FX7 in a Gates housing. With lights. He has some clips on Vimeo that will give you an idea of the video quality.

How deep is "deeper"? Above 200' Ikelite and Equnox are options, the Ikelite sells for around $1700. I think the Equinox is about $2500.

A more reasonable option is to go with the HC7. Understand that you'll trade some low-light performance over the 3CMOS FX7. And I woud guess some clarity - never compared them head to head... But my 1CMOS HDR-HC1 still looks stunning on my HDTV. I'm not doing Blu-Ray yet so can't comment on that.

Also, the new Sony 1CMOS tape-based camera is the HC9 now. It has a larger sensor so should take higher resolution stills. Since computing horsepower isn't an issue, maybe consider one of the HDD models - like the SR11/12 also. They need more processing power during capture and editing since they record in AVCHD - not HDV.

Most housings allow you to switch between video/still as needed. Although it's been my (limited) experience that a frame captured in my editor later is better than one from the camera. ymmv.

I'm unclear about your "want to see what I'm shooting" comment. Does that mean you want an external monitor also? Gates, Amphibico and Equinox all have them. Starting around $3-500 for Standard Def, $2200+ for Hi-Def. If you were doing a lot of Macro work, the HD would be almost required, a $600 SD monitor will still work and show you generally what you're framing - esp. if you get one that does widescreen (16x9) like the camera.

I shoot HDV with an HC1. All of my video is shot in bright Caribbean water. The only times I've wished I had lights was once when a DM pointed out some sharks sleeping in the base of a coral formation. They must've been 15-20' away, under the overhang and it wasn't the clearest viz that day either. And once at the opening of a swimthrough in a Blue Hole. It was really dark and an overcast day. I have some eerie blue footage of my buddy swimming down into a black hole.

Lights in daylight are good for Macro work but fall-off makes them pretty ineffective past about 6-10'. Unless you're Howard Hall and have surface supplied HID's...lol.

But since you plan to shoot wrecks, you should consider buying lights. The camera really doesn't do much better than your eyes in dark, overhead obstructed situations.

If you're just going to do limited Macro, you can get a flat port (glass - no magnification) for either the Gates or the Amphibico housings. btw, the Gates HC7 housing also works with the HC9.

I'm a Sony guy so that's all I know. Since you seem to be favoring a mechanical housing, there are other options for Canon, Panasonic and others. My sister has a Canon HG10, it looks like it would fit in a really small housing...

 

[DaFireMedic]

An FX7 is $2K (Adorama has one) - although it's discontinued. Rumor has it Sony might be re-releasing it this winter.

The rumor has been confirmed by Sony, with the list price of $1999. B & H is showing the relisted FX7 on its site, although its not yet in stock.

 

[ronscuba]

As much as I like my FX7, I wouldn't recommend it as a 1st system. It's big, heavy and to really appreciate what it can do, you'll need to use the manual controls. Not exactly things good for a 1st timer.

I'd go with the Sony HC9, Gates housing, flat port, manual white balance option and the WP25 wide angle lens.

I'd skip the lights for now. You'll have your hands full just learning the camcorder/housing. You can always add lights later and they are often lead to a whole big discussion on technology, cost, etc..

I believe the PS3 can play raw video files burned onto a standard DVD. That will save you the headache of authoring to blueray.

 

[bottomfeeder22]

Thanks for the inputs so far guys, keep them coming! By deeper, I don't mean too deep, 140' max. When I say I'd like to see what I'm shooting, I just mean that I don't want to have my face buried behind my cam exclusively while diving to get the shot; I'd like to be able to back off a bit and still frame the shot, so I guess an external(at least SD) monitor is what I need. As the price point appears to jump substantially from an SD to HD monitor, SD will suffice for this mostly non-macro, hobbyist, just wants-to-turn out some great non-pro video guy.

Ron, are those vimeo vids from your HC9 or FX7? What would you say are the biggest differences between the two, n00b friendliness, etc? Would I grow out of the '9 if I really took off with it? Research is showing the 2 at about the same price, though I haven't checked the housings yet. Thanks!

 

[ronscuba]

I don't have an HC9. All my vimeo stuff is FX7 except the B/W wreck video which is SD from a TRV900.

Not sure where you are checking pricing, but an FX7 costs $1999 and the HC9 is $900. A Gates FX7 housing is over $4k. The Gates HC9 is around $2500 and uses the cam flip out monitor so you shouldn't need an external.

Biggest difference between the 2 is how they handle low light and coloring or lighting differences in the same shot. The FX7 handles these difficult situations better. If you do a search on vimeo for "hc7 underwater" you'll see some HC7 footage. HC9 footage will look the same as the HC7.

How many dives per year do you plan on shooting video ?

 

[bottomfeeder22]

I don't have an HC9. All my vimeo stuff is FX7 except the B/W wreck video which is SD from a TRV900.

Not sure where you are checking pricing, but an FX7 costs $1999 and the HC9 is $900. A Gates FX7 housing is over $4k. The Gates HC9 is around $2500 and uses the cam flip out monitor so you shouldn't need an external.

Biggest difference between the 2 is how they handle low light and coloring or lighting differences in the same shot. The FX7 handles these difficult situations better. If you do a search on vimeo for "hc7 underwater" you'll see some HC7 footage. HC9 footage will look the same as the HC7.

How many dives per year do you plan on shooting video ?

Sorry for the confusion; I thought I'd read something about you using an HC-9 somewhere.

The pricing was just a quick look online after a couple of brewskies, thanks for setting me straight! So total basic package (no extra ports, lights, etc) is roughly $6k for the FX7 and $3.4k for the HC9... that's a big difference to think about.

What is my "future-proofing" going to look like if I go with the hc9 versus the fx7?

Would you advise purchasing a used FX7 and/or housing for one, and if so, what would I expect to pay?

Would a casual wanna-be like myself really be able to tell the difference between the 2 on the big screen?

I'm looking to go on 3-4 dive trips a year w/ the new job, probably filming a total of about 40-50 dives. I'll also use the cam topside for family videos as well, my son is growing up so fast!

Again, I really appreciate the help!

 

[ronscuba]

No problems helping out. That's what's great about boards like this.

The price difference is significant as is the size and weight. My suggestion is to watch my FX7 videos and compare them to the HC7 UW videos on vimeo. Only you and your own eyes can decide how important the differences are and if they are worth the extra costs.

Here are links to 2 good HC7 UW videos. Both have very good macro footage which was shot with lights.

Indonesia - Raja Ampat - sony HC7 HD/Gates housing on Vimeo

Philippines Macro Life on Vimeo

 

[bottomfeeder22]

Those vids look pretty good, I can maybe see a little difference b/c of the low light, but not much. I've been looking at the HC9's cousin, the SR12, and am very interested in that with an Ikelite housing - keeps me well within budget as the housing is $1200ish and has MWB - then I could get into some lights/ports. The reviews claim slightly better low light quality than the HC9, and I'd prefer a hard disk over tape(I'm willing to take the risk of losing everything if the disk dies, I plan to dump my vids into a computer nightly). I could then go with a juiced-up Mac pro for travel and edit with Imovie08, it seems that it's the first Imovie that can handle the AVCHD. Or perhaps that other mac software, final page or something to that effect? Opinions?

 

[diversteve]

Final Cut Pro does:

Final Cut Pro lets you edit everything from uncompressed SD to HDV, DVCPRO HD, and uncompressed HD — as well as Panasonic P2, Sony XDCAM HD, AVCHD and AVC-Intra tapeless formats.

I'm not a Mac user, just saw it somewhere.

I like the SR12, if I didn't already have a camera it would be on my short list. B&H has it on sale for $1100.