Right or Wrong?

[Diver0001]

Consider this hypothetical yet interesting situation. A diver goes on a diving trip, he is a certified cave diver. His brother is also a diver who holds a Wreck Diving Specialty card. They are down in Truk Lagoon and getting ready to make a dive unto a ship wreck. The cave diver holds no card for diving wrecks. On board the charter is a instructor having checked the manifest and c-cards and asks if the certified wreck divers would like to penetrate the wreck, There are three divers plus himself all wreck certified and all have the basic required equipment. The rest of the divers six total including the cave diver are instructed to make their dive with the DM only onto the outside of the wreck. They are instructed not to bring any lights. The cave diver requests to make the wreck dive with penetration. Again the instructor asks to see his wreck card. the cave diver does not have one. The instructor tells him to dive with the DM or not at all

Questions:

1. Was the instructor correct to deny the cave diver a wreck penetration dive based on his lack of wreck diving certification yet knowing he was a cave diver?

Individual abilities aside, I can understand the operator's concern. A wreck is not a cave. Would you let a certified wreck diver penetrate a cave without asking questions?

In my book it's a good call.

R..

 

[Bobby]

Courses such as the TDI advanced wreck will cover entanglement hazards found in wrecks & not cave. The line and how you use it is different for wreck & cave, though I use cave line for wreck diving & just use extra care with the line. S drills are different between the two. A good course will also cover things that are more common in a wreck such as instable structure, body traps, proper entry exit for different openings (sub hatches). Also protocal for deco cylinders, leaving the boat & returning is usually covered in an advanced wreck course. Hope that helps.

Bobby

 

[Mako Mark]

I heard that DSAT was working on an advanced wreck or wreck penetration course, but I havent got any details. Anybody know anything??

 

[Diver0001]

Even with cave-trained buddies?

Case in point. Cave trained divers' skills are generally excellent but their egos are also generally enormous and many of them think they can swim through 312cm of monofiliment to get to a wreck without getting ensnared. If you think a wreck is a big steel cave then you're in trouble before your fins hit the water.....

R..

 

[H2Andy]

Cave trained divers' skills are generally excellent but their egos are also generally enormous and many of them think they can swim through 312cm of monofiliment to get to a wreck without getting ensnared.

well, no, not 312 cm of monofilament... I'm only at Intro. Cave, so the
most i could handle would be 250-300 cm of monofilament.

 

[OneBrightGator]

Case in point. Cave trained divers' skills are generally excellent but their egos are also generally enormous and many of them think they can swim through 312cm of monofiliment to get to a wreck without getting ensnared. If you think a wreck is a big steel cave then you're in trouble before your fins hit the water.....

R..

You're right... but since I'm a big bad cave diver I could swim through 122.835 inches of monofiliment.

My point with the question was that if you have a cave card you probably got it through the NACD, NSS-CDS, TDI or IANTD, all the standards are about the same and they generally produce at least decent divers, in my experience I've never done a dive with someone cave cert.-d who was a "poor" diver, not even Andy.

 

[To_Narced]

This situation definitley poses some tough questions. Are cave divers also qualified to dive wrecks? Was the instructor following a "gut" instinct on the diver he picked up from observing his behaviour/interaction with other divers? And finally, in todays legal enviroment would allowing a diver who does not hold a wreck cert on paper dive a wreck hold the instructor liable in the event of a accident involving the diver? I agree that the fundamental pricipals of cave diving also aplly to wreck diving so the instructors decision to not allow the diver to penetrate the wreck was most likeley not based on a lack or training or experience on the divers part. Instead the instructor who is probaly experienced, has most likley met hundreds of divers in his career and something about the guy may have set off alarm bells. Any instructor will tell you never to ignore your gut. And finally, if anything did happen to the diver, could the instructor be sued for allowing a non-certified wreck diver to penetrate a wreck? This thought would cause me pause. I dont present these scenarios as the reality of the situation that occured, but as a way of stimulating some discusion on the incident which I find to be intresting and mabye precedent?

 

[GDI]

The whole point of this thread is not a cave diver vs the wreck diver it is about certifications and diving within the limits of the your certifications. If you don't have a card that says you are certified for a specific type of diving then you are not certified for that type of diving.

Similarly just because you have a certain level of certification does not mean that you automatically have the certification to make dives that appear to be of a subordinate or comparible level.

A brain surgeon is not certified to perform open heart surgery, he has an understanding of the human body but his specialty is the brain not the heart.

A pilot of a cessna understands principles of flight but he is not rated to pilot an airbus.

Now do we need a card for each and every type of diving out there? NO and NOR Am I suggesting that and nor am I afixated on needing cards for everything. I would like to think that a responsible cave diver or any diver as may matter would understand and be respective to the instructors point of view, those who may have an ego would not fit into this category of course. The fact that many charters do not appear to worry about what certifications a diver has short of looking at c-cards and simply lets them go off and dive is irrelevent. They accept that risk and expect the diver to stay within their limitations. The diver themselves must also accept the risks of the type of diving they are about to undergo. And yes they should have a full understanding of what the charter would let them do before booking it. If you think a charter doesn't care then watch and see how they respond and think when something goes wrong?

There are a copious amount of certifications out there and it is not realistic to think that you could hold each and every one of them. Like many new instructors I went and got as many instructor certs that I could teach as possible. Today I look at some of them and think they are rather mute, others I do not.

Example: I would not stop a diver from getting on a charter because he was lacking a Boat Diver Certification but then I would not just let a cave or wreck diver join me on a ice dive.

We say that the card does not matter, we say that it's all about the experience and training a diver has. Well the c-card is a Diploma of that training illustrating that the holder has successfully completed the standards required of the agency for that certification level having followed a prescribed course and passing some form of examination and skills confirmation. The c-card at the very least will represent a degree of knowledge, observation will prove their skill. The c-card does represent training a diver has undergone, it is the level of thoroughness and quality of training itself that is subject. The instructor in the example of the first post is right to make the "no dive" call for this and for reasons of liability.

For what it is worth for those who do not know me, I am a Cave, Wreck and Ice diving instructor (whoopie). They are all overhead environments and I can see the differences in the environments and certifications. OOPs my ego and arrogance just got the best of me... so sorry!

 

[OneBrightGator]

For what it is worth for those who do not know me, I am a Cave, Wreck and Ice diving instructor (whoopie). They are all overhead environments and I can see the differences in the environments and certifications. OOPs my ego and arrogance just got the best of me... so sorry!

Then I'm sure you can see the similarities in all three (moreso Cave and Wreck) and that with proper training in one and some experience with the other a crossover sans card is not really that far out there...

 

[GDI]

Then I'm sure you can see the similarities in all three (moreso Cave and Wreck) and that with proper training in one and some experience with the other a crossover sans card is not really that far out there...

My transference was from wreck to cave and the transition was not all that difficult. But the "sans card" is really the point of this thread isn't it?