It is a good practice though expensive.
What's the best Wrist Mount Dive Computer for both tech and recreatonal diving & why?
- Thread starter jonscubas
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Jonscuba:
This is the type of advice that will win you an all expense ride to the chamber.
Before you make your selection, consider the source of the advice. This individual has no technical experience. He is wholly unqualified to make any recommendations regarding technical gear.
There are tech divers who use computers. I'm not one of them (I use a Suunto Mosquito as a back up timer only). However, I can assure you that there is substantially more to planning your tech dives with a dive computer than this post implies.
Mad Mole posted a good discussion of the use of computers for tech diving in this thread.
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20263&perpage=15&display=&pagenumber=2
Also note that the criticism of transmitters for tech diving is not limited to DIR.
You should make sure that the advice to which you pay attention is from people who know what they are talking about instead of someone with an agenda and no experience beyond OW.
I am taking everything into account for what I need to find out as being the proper way to do this. Just like all my other gear that I had purchased, I did a lot of research of what would work for me, not everybody else. I think I did okay, as well as my instructor who certified me, who also is tech certified.
But again, everyone has their bias' as would my instructor, so I would going around and asking the questions is one thing. Going after an actual tech certification would really open up my eyes, because first of all they will tell me what I need anyway. I just want to get an idea of what everyone else is using and why it works for them.
But again, everyone has their bias' as would my instructor, so I would going around and asking the questions is one thing. Going after an actual tech certification would really open up my eyes, because first of all they will tell me what I need anyway. I just want to get an idea of what everyone else is using and why it works for them.
As it turns out, I have spoken to OMS on the VR3 and inquired elsewhere in depth about The Suunto Vytec. Everyone on this forum and elsewhere have really educated me, and I've gone beyond the talk to search out the facts.
Air integration for me whether for recreational or technical applications really doesn't matter, when I'm using multiple tanks, 1, 2 or 3, it doesn't matter for now; because technology for these particular units has yet to be announced.
I think the VR3 is awesome, and like I said before I know it definitely has a lot of pro's, but also a heck of a lot of cons. Cost, durability, manufacturer/distributor support and consistency is just as important as what the role of the dive computer is to monitor your depth, time, and calculate all this try and keep you alive.
But all this talk and confirmations by individuals who do not know each other, from other states, and a few countries say some things that concern me. When I'm diving at any depth regardless, I do not want to have to think that my computer although good and that I was fully aware of its potential issues, could start losing a button or if they are too hard to press, or start logging a dive on its on while on a surface interval, and even mistaking the display for that on my G-Shock watch. That would not be a good thing.
The Suunto Vytec without the air integration sounds extremely appealing to this point, it has a lot of great features, some cons as well, or more along the lines that it does not offer the additional features that the VR3 has. But in all fairness, the VR3 does not have some of the quality features that the Vytec has.
I personally feel that the Vytec without the A/I transmitter will be an excellent start, along with tables to back it up. When the VR3 issues hopefully go away, again hopefully ( if everyone who knows the weaknesses to address them with Delta-P for the fix, and they actually fix and improve further the unit). I will include this as my second wrist mount computer, the Vytec would then become the backup.
Air integration for me whether for recreational or technical applications really doesn't matter, when I'm using multiple tanks, 1, 2 or 3, it doesn't matter for now; because technology for these particular units has yet to be announced.
I think the VR3 is awesome, and like I said before I know it definitely has a lot of pro's, but also a heck of a lot of cons. Cost, durability, manufacturer/distributor support and consistency is just as important as what the role of the dive computer is to monitor your depth, time, and calculate all this try and keep you alive.
But all this talk and confirmations by individuals who do not know each other, from other states, and a few countries say some things that concern me. When I'm diving at any depth regardless, I do not want to have to think that my computer although good and that I was fully aware of its potential issues, could start losing a button or if they are too hard to press, or start logging a dive on its on while on a surface interval, and even mistaking the display for that on my G-Shock watch. That would not be a good thing.
The Suunto Vytec without the air integration sounds extremely appealing to this point, it has a lot of great features, some cons as well, or more along the lines that it does not offer the additional features that the VR3 has. But in all fairness, the VR3 does not have some of the quality features that the Vytec has.
I personally feel that the Vytec without the A/I transmitter will be an excellent start, along with tables to back it up. When the VR3 issues hopefully go away, again hopefully ( if everyone who knows the weaknesses to address them with Delta-P for the fix, and they actually fix and improve further the unit). I will include this as my second wrist mount computer, the Vytec would then become the backup.
After a long hard search of the forums, Inspiration and draeger lists etc I can only find 8 people who claim to have had button problems with the vr3 (all older models). Versus about 500 who love em and about 50 people who have heard of the button problem from a friend of a friend
Trouble is one person shouting loudly can turn anything into a fact if they post it in enough places and the rumour is repeated by those with no experiance of the situation
As an owner of both a VR3 and a Vytec (and Vyper, Stinger, ME, Alladin Pro, Orca Edge and DecoBrain) I can say that my Suuntos are relegated to bottom timers and data loggers. My VR3, as have the VR3's of the 20 people or so that I personally know with them, have all been faultless (The Uwatecs and others are in a cupboard somewhere)
In the UK there is no problem. Delta P's service is great and IF my unit was to break, I'd expect a replacement as fast as the postman can carry it. In the US the situation is totally different as OMS is killing the machine there with its bad service, over pricing and general apathy
So button problems are not a valid reason to not choose the VR3. Poor Service from OMS however is. Delta P have been made aware of the many comments on these and other forums about OMS. Lets see if they will do something about it
Either way, Suunto or VR3 you will be getting a very good, reliable and safe piece of kit that you will be happy with
I'm not aware of anything the Vytec or vyper can do that the VR3 cant. The VR3 does have a much better deco pattern with Deep stops. I feel a lot better after say a 50m/30mins Nitrox dive on the VR3 than I do on the Suuntos profile. VR3 gives more time deeper and less at the shallows.
Trouble is one person shouting loudly can turn anything into a fact if they post it in enough places and the rumour is repeated by those with no experiance of the situation
As an owner of both a VR3 and a Vytec (and Vyper, Stinger, ME, Alladin Pro, Orca Edge and DecoBrain) I can say that my Suuntos are relegated to bottom timers and data loggers. My VR3, as have the VR3's of the 20 people or so that I personally know with them, have all been faultless (The Uwatecs and others are in a cupboard somewhere)
In the UK there is no problem. Delta P's service is great and IF my unit was to break, I'd expect a replacement as fast as the postman can carry it. In the US the situation is totally different as OMS is killing the machine there with its bad service, over pricing and general apathy
So button problems are not a valid reason to not choose the VR3. Poor Service from OMS however is. Delta P have been made aware of the many comments on these and other forums about OMS. Lets see if they will do something about it
Either way, Suunto or VR3 you will be getting a very good, reliable and safe piece of kit that you will be happy with
I'm not aware of anything the Vytec or vyper can do that the VR3 cant. The VR3 does have a much better deco pattern with Deep stops. I feel a lot better after say a 50m/30mins Nitrox dive on the VR3 than I do on the Suuntos profile. VR3 gives more time deeper and less at the shallows.
QUOTE]Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
Jonscuba:
This is the type of advice that will win you an all expense ride to the chamber.
Before you make your selection, consider the source of the advice. This individual has no technical experience. He is wholly unqualified to make any recommendations regarding technical gear.[/QUOTE]
Indeed... Couldn't have said it better myself.
And while I'm not an adherent to "DIR" nor to the "computers rot your brain" mantra, todays offerings are useful as backups to a plan, but not as "primary instruments." (Although under certain circumstances some, like the Nitek3 or VR3 are mighty close)Today's remote pressure transmitters are totally unsuitable for technical diving for a variety of reasons.
Rick
Jonscuba:
This is the type of advice that will win you an all expense ride to the chamber.
Before you make your selection, consider the source of the advice. This individual has no technical experience. He is wholly unqualified to make any recommendations regarding technical gear.[/QUOTE]
Indeed... Couldn't have said it better myself.
And while I'm not an adherent to "DIR" nor to the "computers rot your brain" mantra, todays offerings are useful as backups to a plan, but not as "primary instruments." (Although under certain circumstances some, like the Nitek3 or VR3 are mighty close)Today's remote pressure transmitters are totally unsuitable for technical diving for a variety of reasons.
Rick
There are an awful lot of technical divers who disagree with you when it comes to the Nitek and VR3 and, to a lesser extent, to the Vytec (but most switch it to gauge mode)
I know the zealots of one religion or another often like to claim they have the "one true way", no matter the subject, but that should neither come as a surprise nor does it mean they're right.
For me, at least, the test of a claim is the presentation of evidence to go with it - not bald assertions. To those who claim they eschew computers, I simply point out what they used to print those tables they are carrying around, and ask blithely "what happens if you blow that predetermined profile as a consequence of something happening down there? Where's your almighty PC on your desk? And how can it help you now?"
Without the ability to accurately recompute deco requirements it is pretty obvious to me that the answer is "I take a hit" - or "I guess" - or "I die." The "bakers dozen" reasons that the DIR folks promulgate as a reason NOT to use computers stands as proud testament to that kind of thinking.
Here's an example that I've posed to a few tech divers with the DIR "one true way" viewpoint that has never drawn a satisfactory response.
1. You dive these exposures with the "rule of thirds", right? So you cut your tables with those assumptions, with a couple of backup scenarios to cover REASONABLE excursions into that supply. Good! You've done your planning and so you both splash.
2. Ok, you're in the water. Your buddy gets trapped (in the wreck, in the cave, avoiding getting eaten by a hungry tiger shark, etc)
3. You now are going to blow your profile and your backups if you choose to help your buddy attempt to avoid death. The salient question at that moment in time is this:
How long can you stay down there and attempt to solve your buddy's problem without killing YOURSELF in the process. That is, how far can you invade your gas reserve, at depth, without either (1) running out of backgas and other supplies breathable at that depth before you can switch to another supply breathable at a lesser depth, and/or (2) exhausting your deco gas supply for the obligation you will incur by overstaying your welcome.
You need answers to BOTH questions, and you need them in real time, whether you are at 100, 150, 200 or 300'. A guess is not good enough when the alternative is leaving another diver to die.
Yet without online, real-time, recomputation of obligations, you have no way to know precisely where "the wall" - or "zero barrier" if you want to use an Armageddon example - is.
A dive computer can give you this information. An ACCURATE SPG can tell you EXACTLY where the zero barrier is on your backgas. 100 psi graduations do not mean that the gauge is accurate to that level, and more importantly, 100 psi is 100 psi - sometimes a minute or even 30 seconds counts.
That information is not all that important when things go according to plan. Its when you have a total CF on your hands that it suddenly matters.
How many divers have abandoned a search or rescue of someone EARLY (before that barrier was reached), with someone possibly dying as a consequence, or worse, have killed THEMSELVES (by going beyond that barrier) attempting either, as a consequence of not having that informaton?
When I find a tech diver who claims that "computers rot your brain" who can give a satisfactory answer to this question, then I will believe their point of view has merit.
Until then I allege that they have failed to think through the matter and instead are engaged in religious, rather than scientific, debate.
I know the zealots of one religion or another often like to claim they have the "one true way", no matter the subject, but that should neither come as a surprise nor does it mean they're right.
For me, at least, the test of a claim is the presentation of evidence to go with it - not bald assertions. To those who claim they eschew computers, I simply point out what they used to print those tables they are carrying around, and ask blithely "what happens if you blow that predetermined profile as a consequence of something happening down there? Where's your almighty PC on your desk? And how can it help you now?"
Without the ability to accurately recompute deco requirements it is pretty obvious to me that the answer is "I take a hit" - or "I guess" - or "I die." The "bakers dozen" reasons that the DIR folks promulgate as a reason NOT to use computers stands as proud testament to that kind of thinking.
Here's an example that I've posed to a few tech divers with the DIR "one true way" viewpoint that has never drawn a satisfactory response.
1. You dive these exposures with the "rule of thirds", right? So you cut your tables with those assumptions, with a couple of backup scenarios to cover REASONABLE excursions into that supply. Good! You've done your planning and so you both splash.
2. Ok, you're in the water. Your buddy gets trapped (in the wreck, in the cave, avoiding getting eaten by a hungry tiger shark, etc)
3. You now are going to blow your profile and your backups if you choose to help your buddy attempt to avoid death. The salient question at that moment in time is this:
How long can you stay down there and attempt to solve your buddy's problem without killing YOURSELF in the process. That is, how far can you invade your gas reserve, at depth, without either (1) running out of backgas and other supplies breathable at that depth before you can switch to another supply breathable at a lesser depth, and/or (2) exhausting your deco gas supply for the obligation you will incur by overstaying your welcome.
You need answers to BOTH questions, and you need them in real time, whether you are at 100, 150, 200 or 300'. A guess is not good enough when the alternative is leaving another diver to die.
Yet without online, real-time, recomputation of obligations, you have no way to know precisely where "the wall" - or "zero barrier" if you want to use an Armageddon example - is.
A dive computer can give you this information. An ACCURATE SPG can tell you EXACTLY where the zero barrier is on your backgas. 100 psi graduations do not mean that the gauge is accurate to that level, and more importantly, 100 psi is 100 psi - sometimes a minute or even 30 seconds counts.
That information is not all that important when things go according to plan. Its when you have a total CF on your hands that it suddenly matters.
How many divers have abandoned a search or rescue of someone EARLY (before that barrier was reached), with someone possibly dying as a consequence, or worse, have killed THEMSELVES (by going beyond that barrier) attempting either, as a consequence of not having that informaton?
When I find a tech diver who claims that "computers rot your brain" who can give a satisfactory answer to this question, then I will believe their point of view has merit.
Until then I allege that they have failed to think through the matter and instead are engaged in religious, rather than scientific, debate.
At present decompression isn't an exact science. Using different models, computers, parameter settings or softwares it is possible to generate dramaticaly different schedules for the same dive (as in double or halved from one to the next). Given that, how accurate is the real time info given by a computer? While the computer may tell you how long it thinks you should take getting to the surface they (to my knowlege) won't tell you how long at each depth (while in dive mode) so you're still missing info critical to adapting a gas plan. Most of my "technical" dives are on trimix but I don't have a trimix computer. If I must use up my reserves to help a team mate I will know what my deco will be and that I have enough gas to do it. For the dives I am doing I also have an idea (not saying it's an accurate prediction of consequences) of how much deco I would be willing to skip to help another diver.
There is way way more to this stuff than reading and following a computer or table. The more you know the better you are able to adapt as needed with or without a computer. I'm not saying that a computer can't be a useful toy (oops... I mean tool) but the guys saying you don't need one are not just speaking off the cuff.
If you get into this with the right people you will see that some of the methods being employed to plan dives including contingencies are nothing short of works of art
There is way way more to this stuff than reading and following a computer or table. The more you know the better you are able to adapt as needed with or without a computer. I'm not saying that a computer can't be a useful toy (oops... I mean tool) but the guys saying you don't need one are not just speaking off the cuff.
If you get into this with the right people you will see that some of the methods being employed to plan dives including contingencies are nothing short of works of art
Scuba
Contributor
Rick, I have found you to be one who thinks thing through, unlike many here who just parrot the line and proceed to place obstacles in their way instead of seeking an undersstanding of things.
I would be interested in hearing what specific issues you have with respect to computer use and limitations. Not seeking an argument.
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