Will they EVER LEARN?

[MikeFerrara]

Scary stuff.....
I've been thinking about doing some diving at Andros Island (only Rescue trained so far). Looks like they (one particular outfit) have a lot of dives that are for OW, AOW divers, but some of the dives they advertise look like you should have at least Cavern training. There is even a dive where they put you in doubles, probably other redundant gear, and "show" you how to use the rig, then take you on a "guided tour" in the blue holes. They have charts on the website. Looks like some pretty long overhead swims to me and some depths hit 190 ft. before you start to swim horizontal. I'll have to research it more, but it sounds like "trust me" dives. Blue Holes
I don't know. If I'm in an overhead with a DM and he bites it for some reason, would be nice to know I have the skills to get out on my own.

Interesting site. I didn't see any mention about prerequisit qualifications for any of those dives. If I was going to dive the caves there I'd hook up with some of the people I know who go there to lay line every year. Some of those dives are certainly full blown cave dives and at least one sounds like there's significant flow that's tidally influenced meaning that if your timing is off the cave may not let you out. LOL

 

[Kestrell]

Scary stuff.....
I've been thinking about doing some diving at Andros Island (only Rescue trained so far). Looks like they (one particular outfit) have a lot of dives that are for OW, AOW divers, but some of the dives they advertise look like you should have at least Cavern training. There is even a dive where they put you in doubles, probably other redundant gear, and "show" you how to use the rig, then take you on a "guided tour" in the blue holes. They have charts on the website. Looks like some pretty long overhead swims to me and some depths hit 190 ft. before you start to swim horizontal. I'll have to research it more, but it sounds like "trust me" dives. Blue Holes
I don't know. If I'm in an overhead with a DM and he bites it for some reason, would be nice to know I have the skills to get out on my own.

RiverRat, I agree with you.
These Blue Hole dives advertised on the site accessed by the link sound incredible. I would love to do each and every one of them...

...after I am cavern and then cave certified. I got nervous just reading the descriptions of some of the dives. How in the world can you properly train someone to use "cave diving gear" as part of the pre-dive briefing?

Lets see, unfamiliar equipment, overhead environment, significant depth and likely nitrogen narcosis. The only thing missing is a couple of sticks of dynamite (lit) in you BC pocket and a T-bone steak stapled to you butt to attract a shark or two.

I hope they supply you with a Spareair so if you get in trouble, you at least have enough time to recite the Lord's Prayer before you bite the big one.

 

[Kestrell]

RiverRat, I agree with you.
These Blue Hole dives advertised on the site accessed by the link sound incredible. I would love to do each and every one of them...

...after I am cavern and then cave certified. I got nervous just reading the descriptions of some of the dives. How in the world can you properly train someone to use "cave diving gear" as part of the pre-dive briefing?

Lets see, unfamiliar equipment, overhead environment, significant depth and likely nitrogen narcosis. The only thing missing is a couple of sticks of dynamite (lit) in you BC pocket and a T-bone steak stapled to you butt to attract a shark or two.

I hope they supply you with a Spareair so if you get in trouble, you at least have enough time to recite the Lord's Prayer before you bite the big one.

You know what, forget everthing I just said. The name of the operation says it all; Small Hope Lodge. They are obviously trying their best to warn us.

 

[Mako Mark]

nice post Rick,

Perhaps it should be made sticky for a while..

 

[RiverRat]

You know what, forget everthing I just said. The name of the operation says it all; Small Hope Lodge. They are obviously trying their best to warn us.

I think Cavern training is on the horizon for me. Just imagine how many people spend big$ to get to these places then get sucked into doing dives they may not be trained for. Hard to say no to diving after all that goes into setting up a trip like that. Or starting a dive, then realizing half way in that you shouldn't be there. As divers we should all strive to NEVER exceed our training. But sometimes you "don't know" what you "don't know".
It might be prudent for me to send an email to find out just what is being "sold" and if a cert. is required on some of the dives.

 

[JustJoe]

Reading this post I look at myself and wonder what actions I would have taken in your shoes. I probably would have let them go on by, possibly to their deaths. I am not a cave diver nor an instructor of any sort, so I would not be in the situation you were in, but I can't help but think I would have left and ridiculed those two guys over a beer.

The major problem with this is the consequences of letting them die, without the instant ramifications of loss of life and the families. One day, people like this will make some governmental agency to start imposing laws and restrictions that we do not see in diving today. One day a good legal team is going to win a huge settlement from one of these businesses and then what happens? I can guarantee that most of the cave operations will change the way they do business to minimize their risk. And where does that leave cave divers?

But who should be the scuba cops? Should they station scuba bouncers at the entrance to these dangerous places and charge a higher fee to keep the bouncers in place? What about the likes of the petition floating around regarding Wakulla Springs and trying to open the place up to more divers? Doesn't this type of situation give a good argument against more access (kinda like drinking tequila drinks, you let one in and the next thing you know there are a dozen of 'em)?

This is not a problem only with cave diving. I quit diving with a potential buddy because of his lack of safety. He would overweight himself to get down faster and just leave (he dropped like a rock and I couldn't swim down fast enough to keep up). His lack of concern for himself will one day hurt him if he is lucky and kill him if he isn't. Should someone put an end to his diving because his reckless nature will put a black mark on the scuba industry if he does die? I surely don't have the answers.

Joe

PS. BTW Rick, nice Vulcan Grip of Paralysis. How exactly did you make that diver go into a trancelike state?

 

[miketsp]

From the Small Hope site:
"You will be wearing fully redundant cave equipment designed for cave diving and will be thoroughly briefed on how to use it.
A real adrenaline rush!"

The dive descriptions sound awesome. I would love to do some of these dives. I'm a fairly sensible person and I'm almost tempted. In spite of all the risks discussed I'm not sure your post isn't going to backfire by making people aware of this opportunity.

 

[simbrooks]

Rick, i would concur, you more than likely (or in my thoughts you did) saved a life that day with your quick actions and training/experience. From what i have seen of that cave section from the sign it looks like a restriction in many places or pretty close to and i would feel uncomfortable going down there even being intro to cave trained. If i had been in your situation (as myself) i might have attempted a rescue/intervention, but not sure i would have done quite as well - still not sure how you reeled in your spool/safety reel whilst pulling the guy out - did you take him by the tank valve and with the same hand hold the reel, cupping the reg in the inside of your elbow or something? I am sure you gave them a suitable, but calm talking to outside as well. As said above, get them with a heartbeat still rather than drag them out to a body bag.

As for recent experiences, same site, we were there doing some class like stuff on my DS, Fred on the video, then a group of at least a dozen (possibly 15) came hurtling down the line as we were about to ascend - we still had a bit of time, so backed off the line, let them turn and followed them up. It was pretty much a silt out, but you could still see a bit if you got up high a little off the line away from the floor they had disturbed (the line is up high there). I will always laugh at Fred description of these 12 or so coming down the line in a group, with lights shining all over - like the ball dropping on NYE in Time Square

 

[mavjax]

From the Small Hope site:
"You will be wearing fully redundant cave equipment designed for cave diving and will be thoroughly briefed on how to use it.
A real adrenaline rush!"

ummmm, I was not, and do not feel "thoroughly briefed" even though I am cavern certified and am working on intro cave. Experience is needed for this stuff.

The dive descriptions sound awesome. I would love to do some of these dives. I'm a fairly sensible person and I'm almost tempted. In spite of all the risks discussed I'm not sure your post isn't going to backfire by making people aware of this opportunity.

This would be Darwin at his finest. It's bad enough that the uninformed try stupid things but unimaginable when someone with the intelligence to research and read about the sport and still put their life clearly at risk.

When I took OW and AOW all of my instructors told me the same basic thing... "I am not cave certified and don't plan on doing it as it's not for me. If you decide you want to do caves, go out and find yourself what you believe to be the best instructor for your needs". That exactly what I did.

Great Job Rick..... Thanks for helping avoid another accident analysis this month.

 

[pilot fish]

Given the recent events regarding fatalities of divers in caves I thought I would post this in a forum where it would gather the attention of many divers and not just those interested in accidents and incidents or cave diving.
Today I was working with a student finishing up a class in Paradise Springs. At the bottom of Paradise is a small cave were the depth gets to be about 148 ft. My student and I had planned to dive just down to the Grim Reaper sign at 100 ft and multi level our way back up. In comes another team of divers and Yes you guessed it they were not cavern certified. My student who had not yet hit his turn pressure had hit his planned bottom time and still had 8 minutes NDL remaining so we held to our plan and started to head up. At this moment in a blur of silt comes the other team straight down the slope and after pausing momentarily to look at the Grim Reaper sign they continue down and go straight into the cave passage silting as they go and no guidelines running.
I am able to get to the second diver before he can penetrate the cave opening. This team of divers have only two lights between them. I write on my slate asking this diver if he is cavern cert and to no surprise I learn he is not. I have this diver and my student move to the yellow rope, I tell my student to watch him and for them to both hold the line, 5 min NDL remaining second dive of the day and I still have 2500 psi in my doubles after both dives. I look back at the cave opening and wait a good minute to see if the first diver would come out. NOPE not happening! - ok 4 min NDL a quick prayer GOD AMEN and I tie off a safety reel to the yellow rope and into the silt cloud I go. At 145 ft I come accross the diver thanks to the glow of his hand held light, his only light. The diver is waving his hand trying to, I believe read the "TOMBSTONE" only adding yet more silt. Everything is already a whiteout, now you think that would have been enough to tell him to stop! I get to him and his big eyed expression and inability to acknowledge me tells me this guy is NARCED! He quickly turns and decides to go deeper into the silt pit, I grab his tank valve and the guy just stops. I assume this was the work of GOD here because I was able to turn this guy in any direction. HE was frozen!
Somehow holding this guy and taking up my reel I manage to exit the cave passage and get back to the divers on the rope. I notice my diver has about 600 psi and the second diver about 800 psi and we are still at 100 ft. Suddenly at this point my diver signals his buddy and starts to swim away up the rope like nothing was wrong here. Stopping him I show him the message that I had written for his buddy " Are you a cavern trained diver?"Answer: NO and away they happily swim. My student and I look at each other (in major disbelief) and follow them up the slope in the silt trail.(It seems my recent days of diving at Paradise have ended with silt outs, would you not agree Fred; Simon?) NDL remaining 1 minute. My student and I do a 2 min deep stop at 40 ft and a 5 min safety stop at 20ft then we pull our primary line. At the end of the dive I still have 2000 psi and my student 1000 psi (HP 80). I can thank GOD that the day ended well.
But you know when I talked to this dive team about what happened, the second diver (the one who stayed with my student) admitted he could see the potential risks, the first diver (my "el narco") said he just wanted to take a peek inside. neither one of them believed they did anything wrong and cited that diving has risks :dork: I thought "THICK real THICK" But at least I did what I should have done, especially as an instructor, a full cave instructor.
I hope that one day if I should meet these two divers again that we can still talk at the end of the day.........

I salute you, sir! That is a brave gesture on your part to help out those jeky divers that were about to be injured. Your actions are the best example of what diving is. You are a credit to the sport. If they didn't thank you, I will - THANK YOU.