Will they EVER LEARN?

[menemsha43]

Good job and good post. "el narco" lol!

 

[RiverRat]

From the Small Hope site:
"You will be wearing fully redundant cave equipment designed for cave diving and will be thoroughly briefed on how to use it.
A real adrenaline rush!"

The dive descriptions sound awesome. I would love to do some of these dives. I'm a fairly sensible person and I'm almost tempted. In spite of all the risks discussed I'm not sure your post isn't going to backfire by making people aware of this opportunity.

I don't think so. Hope not. It's out on the net anyway. If they read the whole (or part of) thread they might think twice before trying these types of dives without training or get suckered in by some crafty salesman. It just sucks that some people in the industry would entice fellow divers to make these dives without training and feel that it's ok. All in the name of $. What's even worse is if someone comes back from a trip like this alive they might feel they know it all and won't seek additional training.

Anyway, back to the original subject, didn't mean to pull thread off track I hope.
Rick did a great thing helping those guys out, I hope they learned something.

 

[MikeFerrara]

What about the likes of the petition floating around regarding Wakulla Springs and trying to open the place up to more divers? Doesn't this type of situation give a good argument against more access (kinda like drinking tequila drinks, you let one in and the next thing you know there are a dozen of 'em)?

The proposal is to open 2 other springs in the area that are closed but in either case the proposal also contains some pretty high prerequisites.

We have colder, darker and deeper caves that any one can access...no fees, gates or any one to check your card. Restricting access to every one because some choose to kill themselves isn't the answer. It's like shutting down all the highways to save all those who might die tomarrow. The answer isn't in policing because not everyplace is policed at all.

The only answer (and it won't save every one) is training and the setting of a good example by those who are trained. Advertising caverns or caves as OW diver safe is a lie. Diving isn't safe and diving in an overhead is less safe than that and without the training it really isn't safe.

Places like that one with the blue holes are sending the wrong message to people.

you can't save every one and I'm not even sure we should try but we sure could stop talking people into doing stupid things.

 

[COVCI]

While your actions MAY have saved the lives of two divers who acted based upon their own decisions, what about the student/buddy you left behind to enter an overhead environment?

Did you consider the responsiblity you have to the student at this time?

Curious to know your thoughts.

Chris
COVCI

 

[simbrooks]

While your actions MAY have saved the lives of two divers who acted based upon their own decisions, what about the student/buddy you left behind to enter an overhead environment?

Did you consider the responsiblity you have to the student at this time?

Not speaking for GDI, but he did leave the other two divers (the one he stopped before going in and the student) together, there was a good minute or two, i am sure a little communication of buddying up, i'm going in to search is not out of the question given that timeframe. Paradise is 100ft deep at the sign, its considered OW safe, you arent allowed to take students in for basic OW training (but AOW and beyond is fine), so this student was at least competent in this situation to get out with this newly assigned buddy. Cant comment on instructor/student liabilities as i am not in that position.

 

[H2Andy]

GDI wrote:


I have this diver and my student move to the yellow rope, I tell my student to watch him and for them to both hold the line,

and then he goes after el narco. At that point, GDI had 5 minutes NDL left,
and his plan was clearly to help el narco if he could within that amount of time.

He would then return to his student, with or without el narco, and they would then egress together.

In the meantime, his student is holding on to the mainline which will lead directly to the surface should he have to go at it alone.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

of course, if you believe that the sacred catechism of always diving with
a buddy applies, then GDI would have not been able to go after el narco
(because he would have been... gasp... diving solo).

btw, i am pretty sure el narco would have died in that cave (having been
there) without GDI's help. the silt you can kick up in there is AMAZING,
and he would have been disoriented with no hope of getting his bearings
in no time at all.

 

[fgray1]

Been in the cave there. More than once. Not very big. Gets deep fast. Very small entrance. VERY SILTY. Not the mention the Marker for the diver that died in there, That's the one el narco was waiving his hand at silting the cave out so he could read it. If you go back a little further you can get wedged in the rocks easily.
If not for RICK we would be reading about this guy in the papers and not here, well maybe here but not in these terms.
I use Rick for my training for a good reason. Always have always will.

 

[GDI]

While your actions MAY have saved the lives of two divers who acted based upon their own decisions, what about the student/buddy you left behind to enter an overhead environment?

Did you consider the responsiblity you have to the student at this time?

Curious to know your thoughts.

Chris
COVCI

Covci, Thank you for your question and it is a good point that you bring up. So I will address it.
Simon, Andy and Fred have somewhat answered it already. Yes I did consider it:

First: My student was not OW he was AOW and this dive was for his Nitrox cert. I trained him from Open Water so I know what he is like. This dive for nitrox was also a cavern tour which I can give. My student had two lights and a cylinder with a H valve and a long hose. He was trained from the start to use a bungee octo and deploy the breathing reg. He wants to learn cavern, even after seeing this.

Secondly: He was not alone he was with the Second diver from the dive team. They were told to hold the rope and they did. I trust my student. From this point the only place the other diver could have gone was up or down into me.

Third: I am a cave diving Instructor and I am also a SOLO Diving Instructor. I made this dive in full cave equipment as I do any time I am in these sites.

PS. BTW Rick, nice Vulcan Grip of Paralysis. How exactly did you make that diver go into a trancelike state?

I don't think I have seen anyone freeze up quite like that, It startled me to say the least. I think it made it easier to move him out.

 

[Rick Murchison]

how is an open-water diver going to find out,
without going there himself, that overhead is an easy way to leave your family and
friends mourning your untimely passing?

In addition to bringing it up in class, and showing the "deceptively easy" video, whenever I have OW students at a spring with a cavern/cave attached, I have them write in their own hand, date and sign the following statement:
"I have been briefed, and I will not go into the cavern."
If after all that someone still decides to go into a cave without training, it just ain't my fault.
Rick

 

[Rick Inman]

In addition to bringing it up in class, and showing the "deceptively easy" video...

Where can you get this video?