Will they EVER LEARN?

[theskull]

145 feet deep, in a cave, with no guideline, 1 dim light, single tank, silting, and left buddy in the dust.

. . . And I thought we actual certified cave divers were nuts?!

All I can say is Thank You. Excellent job of preventive rescue! Saved yourself the trouble of making a body recovery dive an hour later.

theskull

 

[lostinspace]

brrr..... gave me the shivers reading that one.

Here in SEA there is a site off Sipadan called Turtle's Tomb. Bit of a clue wouldnt you think? It's where turtles for gawdsakes drown from getting lost. You would not believe the number of people (often Japanese - perhaps a language thing?) that try and find it.....

 

[Otter]

a thought:

taking GDI's question literally... how is an open-water diver going to find out,
without going there himself, that overhead is an easy way to leave your family and
friends mourning your untimely passing?

i know that there are the grim reaper signs and the warnings, and also the warnings
in OW classes not to go into overhead... but is this enough?

this is my question: how do we reach these people going into overhead (without
a minimum of training) before they do just that?

possible answer: ban all OW divers from any dive site where they can go
into overhead?

Without changing the tone and intent of the thread, in our neck of the woods, we see people diving to depths that are way beyond their training. Thankfully, they don't often have equipment problems, otherwise they would be in a world of hurt and without the closer proximity of other divers (i.e., the ocean is mighty big).

Nice job Rick!

 

[utnapistim]

this is my question: how do we reach these people going into overhead (without a minimum of training) before they do just that?

I was told in OW class that overhead environments raise the risks exponentially. But it didn't really reach me. (what reached my neuron were a lot of stories like this on the net )

I think it would be usefull to show in OW classes examples of situations where it seems safe for OW/AOW divers and examples of potential risks that are not so obvious (and maybe a few words on how these risks are covered in cave/wreck courses). That would reach far more than saying "remember you are certified for open water; do not go in overhead environments"; That's what I received, then Iwas offered a trip to the Zenobia with penetration (now I have serious second thoughts about taking it).

 

[MikeFerrara]

Good job Rick.

It doesn't help that we have all these caverns that are advertised as "OW diver safe"...see the Ginnie web site. I'm not a cave instructor but I'm an instructor and I'm cave trained and I still can't figure out what the hell makes a cavern "OW diver safe".

Divers are led into overhead environments everyday on resort dives. I started showing "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" to all of my classes of any level after a former student told me of being led by a DM into a wreck at 100 ft. The DM was the only one with a light and they did leave the lighted zone. My former students got back on the boat with like 200 psi so gas planning was also inadequate. So hmmm, no lights, no training, no line, no 3rds...Gee they broke almost all the rules that I use to stay alive as a cave diver. If we need those rules, I'll bet they need them more. LOL

Aside from warning students about caves and wrecks, I also warn them about DMs who want a tip but have no overhead training themselves.

I've seen many OW divers back at the gate at vortex too...300 ft in and 106 ft down. Instead of keeping people out they string lights for them. That's great but you still can't swim through rock and you can't breath the light.

Like Ted Nugent said "wack em pack em and stack em"

 

[GDI]

There is a mention of overhead environments in PADI's OW book (it may be in others, but I'm not familiar with them) and I would imagine any OW class in cave country discusses the dangers at length, I know I do with my students. It's all about knowledge, if you show them what they need to go cave diving, especially training and why, then they're more likely to make the logical decision.

So true BEN I do just that here and I did when I was up in Wreck diving country they mention the same things about wrecks. The PADI book has a pic of a diver about to enter a wreck.

 

[GDI]

Rick,

Good job, my compliments to you on your decisive action.

I remember when we went down there, wasn't that the same place we went on a similar profile to the dive you were doing on this dive? The video, the grim reaper sign, the waiver, all make it clear that a standard open water diver should NOT go past that point. When we took the dive I remember you discussing the fact that we would go no deeper than the sign yond. That was our plan and we dove our plan.

I also remember when we were at Blue Grotto and you demonstrated how easily one can create a silt out, and how completely screwed up it makes visibility, and we both had HID lights, with backups.

On both of our dives we were the only ones in the water at the time and we had plenty of air (both on doubles) so it was an appropriate teaching tool to show me what some of the dangerous situations look like. A silt out is not somthing to be taken lightly, nor is being narcd at depth, nor in a cave without a line. Yikes, as I type this I get more concerned for the safety of the other team you saved.

Again Rick, good work.

Mark Vlahos

Hey Mark how is show biz? Yes it was exactly the same profile and the same place

even though you as a full cave instructor could take me be

Yes and If it were our plan to have done so then we would of had some pre-training for that as you know. Our plan that day was to work using doubles before we intoduced stage bottles, I enjoyed that day your're a great guy to train with.
Remember Boynton Beach? Next time I'll make sure I grab the correct length of reel so the chase boat doesn't loose sight of the float ball.

 

[Spectre]

i know that there are the grim reaper signs and the warnings, and also the warnings
in OW classes not to go into overhead... but is this enough?

this is my question: how do we reach these people going into overhead (without
a minimum of training) before they do just that?

possible answer: ban all OW divers from any dive site where they can go
into overhead?

There is one thing that I've learned in my time on the board. There are people that want to know, want to learn and are accepting of opinions, views and suggestions. Then you have the closed minded that aren't ready to listen. I've learned that I can say what I think, but I can't force someone to believe or accept what I say; and I've given up trying.

Likewise; with all of this stuff; there's a line you have to draw. I would call BS to anyone that would state that they didn't know going into overhead, expecially cave, without training was was wrong and dangerous. But that doesn't change the fact that people want to go into overhead all the time.

There is a line you have to draw. A point where you throw your hands into the air and stop trying to upset Darwin's theories and principles. The more restrictions, the more threats, the more policing you add just creates more creative ways to cheat, sneak, violate. There is a point where you have to step back and stop trying to protect people from themselves.

 

[RiverRat]

Good job Rick.

It doesn't help that we have all these caverns that are advertised as "OW diver safe"...see the Ginnie web site. I'm not a cave instructor but I'm an instructor and I'm cave trained and I still can't figure out what the hell makes a cavern "OW diver safe".

Divers are led into overhead environments everyday on resort dives. I started showing "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" to all of my classes of any level after a former student told me of being led by a DM into a wreck at 100 ft. The DM was the only one with a light and they did leave the lighted zone. My former students got back on the boat with like 200 psi so gas planning was also inadequate. So hmmm, no lights, no training, no line, no 3rds...Gee they broke almost all the rules that I use to stay alive as a cave diver. If we need those rules, I'll bet they need them more. LOL

Aside from warning students about caves and wrecks, I also warn them about DMs who want a tip but have no overhead training themselves.

I've seen many OW divers back at the gate at vortex too...300 ft in and 106 ft down. Instead of keeping people out they string lights for them. That's great but you still can't swim through rock and you can't breath the light.

Like Ted Nugent said "wack em pack em and stack em"

Scary stuff.....
I've been thinking about doing some diving at Andros Island (only Rescue trained so far). Looks like they (one particular outfit) have a lot of dives that are for OW, AOW divers, but some of the dives they advertise look like you should have at least Cavern training. There is even a dive where they put you in doubles, probably other redundant gear, and "show" you how to use the rig, then take you on a "guided tour" in the blue holes. They have charts on the website. Looks like some pretty long overhead swims to me and some depths hit 190 ft. before you start to swim horizontal. I'll have to research it more, but it sounds like "trust me" dives. Blue Holes
I don't know. If I'm in an overhead with a DM and he bites it for some reason, would be nice to know I have the skills to get out on my own.

 

[GDI]

Good job Rick.

It doesn't help that we have all these caverns that are advertised as "OW diver safe"...see the Ginnie web site. I'm not a cave instructor but I'm an instructor and I'm cave trained and I still can't figure out what the hell makes a cavern "OW diver safe".

Divers are led into overhead environments everyday on resort dives. I started showing "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" to all of my classes of any level after a former student told me of being led by a DM into a wreck at 100 ft. The DM was the only one with a light and they did leave the lighted zone. My former students got back on the boat with like 200 psi so gas planning was also inadequate. So hmmm, no lights, no training, no line, no 3rds...Gee they broke almost all the rules that I use to stay alive as a cave diver. If we need those rules, I'll bet they need them more. LOL

Aside from warning students about caves and wrecks, I also warn them about DMs who want a tip but have no overhead training themselves.

I've seen many OW divers back at the gate at vortex too...300 ft in and 106 ft down. Instead of keeping people out they string lights for them. That's great but you still can't swim through rock and you can't breath the light.

Like Ted Nugent said "wack em pack em and stack em"

Mike as usual you have some great points here. I teach my students about making sure they have a buddy with the correct attitude. When divers go on trips to some resort they often will do things they would not normally do at their home dive sites. They follow (blindly) a DM/guide into all sorts of potentially high risk situations. New students do this all the time with their instructors. The first OW dives for certification are in fact trust me dives. Standards of all agencys require instructors to be familar with the dive site before they take students there. None the less It is important that divers learn to take their own life into their own hands

We have all done this at one time or another, blindly follow a buddy, Dm or instructor. As I get older and hopefully wiser in my diving I can see the failing of this aspect of human nature. I try to incorporate this failing into my training by intentionally planning to trip up my students. Simple things like going past the Grim Reaper sign or going deeper than the 100 ft planned depth and seeing if they will follow. I even tell them that I will do this and you know most of them follow. But it does teach them their limitations.
Trick me once shame on you, trick me twice shame on me, aint that how the saying goes.