Dive Agencies PADI, SSI, SDI, NAUI, YMCA, ACUC, CMAS

[DiveTyme]

Very well said Julie!
The best combination is good instructor and a student that wants to learn and has common sense.
Tim
P.S. Thanks to Genesis for making Scubaboard interesting.

[Scott M]

All members of the RSTC are mandated to have the same basic standards not unlike building codes in construction. and like building codes The reality is that these standards are a set of "minimums" and from there is where the different agencies differ.

The RSTC minimums are excellent in their intent. Some agencies stick pretty close to the RSTC minimums while other exceed them in differing areas but none of them can fall below them in any way shape or form...

Mandating is fine in it's most idealistic approach but who is doing the checking of the instructors to be sure they are following the mandate? The agency itself is, the same one that is backing them and receiving the money from the new c-cards issued. Kinda like the fox watching the hen house. Not much credable accountability. The difference between the dive industry and the building industry is that each state and/or local municipality IS holding building contractors accountable for their actions.

Ultimately you cannot keep ultimate controll over the instructors you certify and for that very reason it would be impossible to lay complete liability for bad instruction or good instruction at he feet of any one agency.

Additionally some instructors take their positions very seriously while others do not. This is true of instructors trained by all agencies.

My point exactly.

So where does that leave us? Find a good instructor with a course you feel is right for you and don't worry about the agency they teach for. Julie

The problem is that someone new to SCUBA wouldn't know a good instructor from a bad one with nothing to compare them to, either good or bad.

Now that I have had a chance to listen and learn from the great members of this forum I look back and am very satisfied with the results of my OW training and the advise to never stop learning has been well taken.

Scott

[ScubaJewel]

Actually, NAUI doesn't recognize the RSTC and no longer feels it necessary to set it's standards with RSTC minimums in mind. Look at their swimming requirements.

Even for those agencies who follow RSTC minimums, there's a big difference in what is required. RSTC minimums, IMO, fall far short of what is necessary to produce safe, competent divers.

Naui may not recognize the RSTC but if the RSTC recognizes them then they are still following or exceeding their guidlines...and that's a good thing

It's my feeling that what it takes to produce safe and competent divers differs more so from diver to diver than from agency to agency. the ability for a good instructor to recognize his students specific needs and to tailor his class to meet the individuals needs is crucial in producing safe an competent divers.

My main point was that no agency out there no matter how well their program is set up can assure that they produce better divers than any other. Ultimately it is up to each instructor to produce the good divers...

Julie

[ScubaJewel]

Mandating is fine in it's most idealistic approach but who is doing the checking of the instructors to be sure they are following the mandate? The agency itself is, the same one that is backing them and receiving the money from the new c-cards issued. Kinda like the fox watching the hen house. Not much credable accountability. The difference between the dive industry and the building industry is that each state and/or local municipality IS holding building contractors accountable for their actions.


In my opinion that for the most part agencies don't check up on it at all unless problems pop up. They put out fires more than anything and then they try to eliminate or control future occurance of problems by instituting new standards and procedures where applicable.




The problem is that someone new to SCUBA wouldn't know a good instructor from a bad one with nothing to compare them to, either good or bad.

Scott

I believe that most people could choose a good instructor with no previous knowlege of scuba diving by educating themselves before they interview instructors. The reality is that almost no one interviews instructors. They simply drop by a scuba shop and sign up with whoever they set you up with and often in a rush to complete the course before their upcoming trip...

Julie

[Scott M]

I believe that most people could choose a good instructor with no previous knowlege of scuba diving by educating themselves before they interview instructors. The reality is that almost no one interviews instructors. They simply drop by a scuba shop and sign up with whoever they set you up with and often in a rush to complete the course before their upcoming trip...

Julie

So true.

Having a system of checks and balances would in some way, at least down the road, insure that the students were graduating with at least the bare basics. And if they were not ready then so be it, no card until ready.

Scott

[DiveTyme]

Checks and balances do exist. PADI and the YMCA both send questionaires to random students (usally 1 out of 5). A breach of standards and the instructor can be suspended. Building codes and inspectors? Hard to understand and not uniform.

[Scott M]

Checks and balances do exist. PADI and the YMCA both send questionaires to random students (usally 1 out of 5). A breach of standards and the instructor can be suspended. Building codes and inspectors? Hard to understand and not uniform.

Depends on the state. In New York, there tough and as of recently all building inspectors had to go through classes to catch up to the codes.

Scott

[MikeFerrara]

The agencies need to go out in the field once in a while and see what's going on and forget those stupid questionairs.

The standards need to be written in terms of measurable requirements that mean something. It is requires that buoyancy control be taught in an entry level class but we mostly see these students on their knees and or leaving a trail of silt with poor trim and finning technique. The standards require a kick to be taught but it doesn't exclude doing it with fins in the bottom. The standards may require a student to hover for a certain period of time once or twice. It should require them to hover whenever they're not going anyplace.

The standards are an absolute joke. The proof is that you can teach a really lousy class without violating them. You can argue that the intent of the standards is being violated but why don't they just state the intent? I say it's because then some one would expect them to enforce them. I know how some agencies respond to complaints of sloppy teaching. The standards are written to allow that and the releases are written such that avoiding injury is the responsibility of the student.

The RSTC is nothing but a bunch of agencies writting what they are doing into a standards (ANSII) It's the fox watching the hen house.

[Walter]

Julie,

"Naui may not recognize the RSTC but if the RSTC recognizes them then they are still following or exceeding their guidlines"

They are not.

The RSTC guidelines are a joke! They are so poor there might just as well not be any guidelines at all. Any agency that doesn't far exceed those guidelines ensures a poor product in the vast majority of their certifications.

"no agency out there no matter how well their program is set up can assure that they produce better divers than any other."

You are calmly allowing agencies to lay down crappy standards and blaming instructors who follow those standards for doing a poor job. If an instructor follows his agency's minimum standards and produces a lousy diver, the blame rests solely on the agency! While I agree an instructor can exceed an agency's low standards and do a good job, the agency should have higher standards to begin with. If one agency requires more competence in its standards than another, then that agency's instructors will, on average, produce better divers than the other. This is happening every day. While I always exceed YMCA's standards, I could follow them to the letter and finish with a pretty good diver. With PADI standards, I wouldn't be able to do so.

Mike,

"The standards are an absolute joke. The proof is that you can teach a really lousy class without violating them."

Unfortunately, you are correct. Some are much better than others, but they all need improving.

Jim,

"As far as I can see none of the agencies standards suck."

Perhaps glasses are in order.

GDI,

"The low standards really are the result of application of standards by the instructor and instructor trainers"

You are wrong. The agencies write their standards. Any agency with low standards has no one to blame but themselves. Instructors and Instructor Trainers do not write the standards.

Scott,

"How would it be possible to have accountability with out a standard by which to judge it?"

Results. Most of the divers I see on the reef are clearly not ready to be there. They have not learned basics I teach before I even introduce SCUBA.

[boomx5]

The agencies need to go out in the field once in a while and see what's going on and forget those stupid questionairs.

The standards need to be written in terms of measurable requirements that mean something. It is requires that buoyancy control be taught in an entry level class but we mostly see these students on their knees and or leaving a trail of silt with poor trim and finning technique. The standards require a kick to be taught but it doesn't exclude doing it with fins in the bottom. The standards may require a student to hover for a certain period of time once or twice. It should require them to hover whenever they're not going anyplace.

The standards are an absolute joke. The proof is that you can teach a really lousy class without violating them. You can argue that the intent of the standards is being violated but why don't they just state the intent? I say it's because then some one would expect them to enforce them. I know how some agencies respond to complaints of sloppy teaching. The standards are written to allow that and the releases are written such that avoiding injury is the responsibility of the student.

The RSTC is nothing but a bunch of agencies writting what they are doing into a standards (ANSII) It's the fox watching the hen house.

It's about time someone hit the nail on the head; good post Mike.