Jacket BCD vs. Backplate/Wing

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No, telling divers that they don't need to have BP/W to be considered "worthy"divers and that Jacket BC is fine and appropriate for what they are going to be doing. Should their needs change, just as any diver, they would asses their needs and the solutions available when appropriate.

Divers go a lifetime without needing a BP/W and they are happy, safe and content with their Classic or ADV style BC's no problem. Let's not over-sell this BP/W thing.
 
OK, as a new diver (5 whole dives), and a vacation diver (2 weeks a year), the whole BP/wing thing is confusing. I have been lurking here for some time, and checked out the manufactueres websites and I still have no idea how to set up a BP/Wing. Most of the answeres here are that they are great. But online they look like a pile of straps conected to some obscure paraphenalia. I hear you tend to float face down (somewhat), then that that is a myth that you have to trim your setup correctly and learn to swim with one, but no idea HOW to do that.

I would like to get some more constructive info on the BP/Wing. (Yes I have searched) but I definately see why a newbie (like me) would go for a jacket style off the boat.

Cheers
jaycat
 
To me, the worst part isn't that. After all, manufacturers make their money on gear sales. And magazines make their money putting up ads - regardless of the validity of the messages.

To me, the worst part is that there are so many of the so called "pros" such as dive instructors and dive masters that encourage this kind of behavior. My suggestion, anytime someone gives you advice that excludes putting some thought into the process that can save you money, run away screaming.

Oh, brother. Another variant of the "conspiracy theory." Don't you think that this is insulting to all of the good instructors out there who are good, honest, knowledgeable and experienced folks who have a different opinion than yours (perhaps much more experienced than you)?

If you want to state your own opinion and explain how you do things, that's fine. Let's us not get religious about it and condemn everyone who doesn't believe as you do to hell. Give it a rest please.
 
Divers go a lifetime without needing a BP/W and they are happy, safe and content with their Classic or ADV style BC's no problem. Let's not over-sell this BP/W thing.

It's very interesting...

When the pro-BP/W people say "A beginner can dive with a BP/W..." for some strange reason the anti-BP/W people hear us say "A beginner must dive with a BP/W..."

On the other hand, when the anti-BP/W people say "A BP/W is too hard for a beginner to use a BP/W" and we counter with ""It's actually very easy to dive a BP/W..." the anti-BP/W seem to hear us say "If you don't dive a BP/W you will always be a terrible diver..."

:idk:
 
Where did I say that? In fact, I am not anti or for BP/W. You can use anything you want that you deem appropriate for you and for your type of diving. Just don't insult me or my colleagues if we happen to believe differently from you.

I don't know what complex it is, but it seems that since the mid 90's techie wanna be's want to gain absolute acceptance and force their dogma on everyone else to the point of being belligerent and belittling anyone who dares to believe otherwise.

Again, use whatever pleases you and give it a rest.
 
OK, as a new diver (5 whole dives), and a vacation diver (2 weeks a year), the whole BP/wing thing is confusing. I have been lurking here for some time, and checked out the manufactueres websites and I still have no idea how to set up a BP/Wing. Most of the answeres here are that they are great. But online they look like a pile of straps conected to some obscure paraphenalia. I hear you tend to float face down (somewhat), then that that is a myth that you have to trim your setup correctly and learn to swim with one, but no idea HOW to do that.

I would like to get some more constructive info on the BP/Wing. (Yes I have searched) but I definately see why a newbie (like me) would go for a jacket style off the boat.

Cheers
jaycat



So, you'd prefer THIS approach...

BC_excursion.jpg


Because you think THIS ONE looks like "a pile of straps connected to some obscure paraphernalia"...

Eclipse-harness_detail.jpg



:shocked2:
 
Problem with the BP/W is that the diver never EVER feels their BC inflating.
With a back inflate you sorta feel the inflate, right before the BC auto purges, with a jacket you feel the inflate immediately.

New divers will not always be able to adapt to this lack of feel easily.
A BP/W places more emphasis on technique, ability, buoyancy, and trim characteristics that just aren't present in a typical new diver.

Setting one up and using one effectively is like rocket science to someone who's never even seen one. And before the BP/W users jump down my throat, just think about it.
When you were certified did you ever think of things like tying down your danglies with bungee or inner tires? No.
Did your basic instructor teach you the proper way to clip something onto your shoulder D-ring? No
etc etc

Without any experienced BP/W diver as a mentor, a BP/W for a new diver is a horrible choice IMO.

Having said that however, using one is not hard if you have someone showing you the ropes.

So lets see...Backplates are now BAD because of a very nice feature... Backplate and wings make diving more comfortable because they don't change size as the inflation changes. This leads to the system fitting the same before, during and after the dive. No rolling around, or nonsense like this. But, if your training is poor, a good feature turns into a bad one. Again, fix the PROBLEM of poor training, not the symptom. A new diver CAN and SHOULD be taught proper bouyancy. Ideally, scuba classes should be turning out divers who know those skills, and it is shameful that they aren't. We should stop excusing this behaviour and start training people right.

Additionally, proper clipping of gear should be covered in even the crappiest open water course.

I think another big issue that leads to newbie misinformation about BP&W is the simple fact that many/most recreational instructors/DMs don't have a clue about them. This is certainly true for the majority of instructors/DMs working in holiday locations.

As is typical with many dive pros, they won't want to admit a lack of knowledge to a customer, so they make up a 'cover story' about them being purely for 'technical' diving etc etc.

THIS. Oh goodness yes, this hits the nail on the head!

No, telling divers that they don't need to have BP/W to be considered "worthy"divers and that Jacket BC is fine and appropriate for what they are going to be doing. Should their needs change, just as any diver, they would asses their needs and the solutions available when appropriate.

Divers go a lifetime without needing a BP/W and they are happy, safe and content with their Classic or ADV style BC's no problem. Let's not over-sell this BP/W thing.

So...BC users can go a lifetime without need a BP/W. Funny thing is, BP/W users can go a lifetime without needing a BC. Lets not oversell this jacket BC thing. :wink:

It's very interesting...

When the pro-BP/W people say "A beginner can dive with a BP/W..." for some strange reason the anti-BP/W people hear us say "A beginner must dive with a BP/W..."

On the other hand, when the anti-BP/W people say "A BP/W is too hard for a beginner to use a BP/W" and we counter with ""It's actually very easy to dive a BP/W..." the anti-BP/W seem to hear us say "If you don't dive a BP/W you will always be a terrible diver..."

:idk:

Once again, a nail hit on the head!!


I am biased. I learned in a BC. I bought a BC. I bought another BC. I hated, hated, hated them all. Every single one of them let the tank slide around and hit my head. They changed size when I added gas. They sucked, and they were expensive units too, real nice Scubapro gear. When I bought my first backplate and wing, it was a breeze to set up. There are numerous guides on the internet, and it's really no more difficult than threading two things together. It's the same concept as belts use...if you can dress yourself, you can figure it out, not to mention, most stores sell them somewhat pre assembled. The first time in the water was like heaven. The rig fit me perfectly, and stayed with me. Icould move and the tank wouldn't hit my head because it moved with me. It was a glorious moment, and one that made me certain I loved diving, where before it was more of a love-hate relationship.


Should I mention how so many students get supremely confused when trying to figure out all the doodads on a jacket BC? Weight pockets get jammed in wrong. Straps get unclipped. All sorts of stuff. One of the high end rental BC's, a nice Scubapro, used a cumberbund AND a belt clip thing, that confused students very reliably. Everyone who put on a Zeagle Express Tech, which is immediately and easily adjustable, put it on right the first time and had no confusion at all. Very simple and easy to use system. Small observation, nothing scientific about it, just my experiences as a DM.


Once again, I don't care what people use. But, this baloney about backplate and wings being just for technical divers, and being harder to use, needs to stop. All I ask is for dive shops and dive professionals to give objective reviews and correct answers to students about things like this.

But, that is clearly too much to ask in an industry whose favourite line seems to be "aluminum tanks older than 20 years can't be filled" and "don't buy online, those products probably aren't safe or don't come with a warranty, plus they are putting me out of business."
 
OK, as a new diver (5 whole dives), and a vacation diver (2 weeks a year), the whole BP/wing thing is confusing. I have been lurking here for some time, and checked out the manufactueres websites and I still have no idea how to set up a BP/Wing. Most of the answeres here are that they are great. But online they look like a pile of straps conected to some obscure paraphenalia. I hear you tend to float face down (somewhat), then that that is a myth that you have to trim your setup correctly and learn to swim with one, but no idea HOW to do that.

I would like to get some more constructive info on the BP/Wing. (Yes I have searched) but I definately see why a newbie (like me) would go for a jacket style off the boat.

Cheers
jaycat

Jaycat:

I will never regret having bought a BP/W as my first and still only BC. However, yes they require a bit more balance/treading at the surface to remain upright. It's not a "training" issue or a myth - it is pure fact that a jacket just floats you like a PFD and a BP/W does not. But who cares? When you're underwater, they hold you in a much nicer position.

Setup out of the box, if you don't have your LDS do it for you, is like putting together a piece of Ikea furniture, wrapping a birthday present or lashing a surfboard to the top of a car. You just go step-by-step, one slot at a time, adding d-rings as you thread the webbing through the slots in the backplate. Tobin's instructions, as an example, are quite clear. It's not like you have to do this every time you go diving... just when you first put it together. Usually, I don't even readjust when I switch from my 7 mil to my 3/2 -- neoprene allows for a lot of wiggle room. The least I've ever worn with it is a rashguard, and it's still very comfortable.

On my first time out, I was lucky enough to have a fellow BP/W user help me with pieces of inner tube, bungee, etc. -- the little things -- and that was great. But you can get a lot of info right here on SB as well (as the length of this thread should demonstrate).
 
Oh, brother. Another variant of the "conspiracy theory." Don't you think that this is insulting to all of the good instructors out there who are good, honest, knowledgeable and experienced folks who have a different opinion than yours (perhaps much more experienced than you)?

If you want to state your own opinion and explain how you do things, that's fine. Let's us not get religious about it and condemn everyone who doesn't believe as you do to hell. Give it a rest please.

I don't care what others' opinions are. They are entitled to have them. Nor do I care whether people buy jacket BCs or leather jackets.

My point is that money for most of us is hard earned. The only advice that is worthwhile is one where you are told to use your brain to achieve your end results. Any advice that directs a new diver to buy something for now instead of thinking things through to get the right gear the first time around is plainly idiotic. And any instructor worth his or her salt would not give this kind of advice.
 

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