Jacket BCD vs. Backplate/Wing

[BDSC]

Another observation I have noticed over my few years on SB is that many BP/W users seem very passionate/aggressive about trying to convert others to using a BP/W while those that use either a Jacket or BI (and I know a BP/W is a BI) BC seem to be more "live and let live" about what BC folks use. Why do I say this? Simple. Check out most of the threads where a diver asks about what type of BC they should get and watch the responses. If a diver asks specifically a question like this about jacket bc's:

"I'm looking at getting my first set of gear and I'm trying to decide between Brand X BC vs Brand Y BC. Which would you go with?"

Within the first 3 or 4 posts, sometimes even the first post, someone will post and say something to this effect, "Let me save you the trouble of making a mistake by buying either of those. What you want is a BP/W. If you buy what you are looking at, you'll eventually sell it on e-bay and move up to a BP/W. Let me keep you from making the mistake I made and wasting your money."

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've seen that type of response! The thread will usually just turn into a "Why you don't want that and why you do want what I'm telling you." It becomes hard to even give the person the advice they were looking for because they get bombarded with getting a BP/W.

Now what happens when it's the other way. What happens when a person says this.

"I'm looking at getting a BP/W and can't decide between a Dive Rite vs this vs that. What do you guys think?"

You'll practically never, if ever, see the Jacket or BI users come on and tell the person they shouldn't buy a BP/W. They leave the discussion of which BP/W to buy to those who care or to those who have good input about BP/W's. They don't try and hijack the thread and turn it into why a Jacket/BI BC is better.

But the BP/W users just can't seem to be able to help themselves. They are overpowered by some force that makes them go all out to convert the poor misguided Jacket user who just doesn't know any better.

 

[DevonDiver]

OK, here goes. I have a Zeagle Stilletto.
It is a back inflate....
It is modular...
I can replace the bladder....
Most everything can be changed out if needed...
It has a couple of pockets....
It is weight integrated.....
It is rigged with a crotch strap.....
There are weight pouches in the back.....

Do you think this description has more in common with BP&W, than with a traditional poodle jacket?

If I added some integrated weights to my Halcyon Eclipse.... I'd have exactly the same list of features...

If divers are attracted by the features offered by these 'hybrid' BCDs, then why aren't they educated by their LDS salesman about where those features come from... and what their true range of purchase options actually are?

There's a lot of divers who'd look at the Zeagle Stilleto and say that it was a great recreational BCD..... and then they'd look at a Halcyon Eclipse and say that is was 'techie' and unsuitable for beginners etc etc etc

Does that strike anyone else as stupid?

 

[DevonDiver]

Another observation I have noticed over my few years on SB is that many BP/W users seem very passionate/aggressive about trying to convert others to using a BP/W while those that use either a Jacket or BI (and I know a BP/W is a BI) BC seem to be more "live and let live" about what BC folks use. Why do I say this? Simple. Check out most of the threads where a diver asks about what type of BC they should get and watch the responses. If a diver asks specifically a question like this about jacket bc's:

I think there is a fair assumption that the OP would not have heard about BP&W. Therefore, some BP&W divers want to educate about a wider range of options. They do this because they have had a very good experience with using a BP&W and wish to share the benefit of this experience.
When BP&W is mentioned, it can cause an auto-response in some people, who see this as an attempt 'convert'. They respond defensively and aggressively to 'refute' the BP&W claims.

Yes... BP&W gets mentioned in 'jacket bc' threads.

But then again.... I've lost count of how many BP&W threads get pounced on by 'jacket BCD defenders'.

So, the same issue can be raised in reverse.... why are jacket BCD defenders so very passionate/aggressive about trying to prevent the education of divers about the pros and cons of using a BP/W?

 

[dmoore19]

Do you think this description has more in common with BP&W, than with a traditional poodle jacket?

If I added some integrated weights to my Halcyon Eclipse.... I'd have exactly the same list of features...

If divers are attracted by the features offered by these 'hybrid' BCDs, then why aren't they educated by their LDS salesman about where those features come from... and what their true range of purchase options actually are?

There's a lot of divers who'd look at the Zeagle Stilleto and say that it was a great recreational BCD..... and then they'd look at a Halcyon Eclipse and say that is was 'techie' and unsuitable for beginners etc etc etc

Does that strike anyone else as stupid?

Stupid? No, silly, foolish, unaware? Yes.

Then you might agree with the idea that the Stiletto (considering it's features and it's similarity to a BPW) may possibly be an option?

 

[merxlin]

.........But then again.... I've lost count of how many BP&W threads get pounced on by 'jacket BCD defenders'.

So, the same issue can be raised in reverse.... why are jacket BCD defenders so very passionate/aggressive about trying to prevent the education of divers about the pros and cons of using a BP/W?

This is not what I have seen. In my opinion, BP/W proponents post far more in BCD threads than the other way around. Rarely do I see someone propose a JBCD in a BP/W thread. You are in this thread:new-bp-w. Is there any mention of a jacket BC there from anyone?

 

[DevonDiver]

Then you might agree with the idea that the Stiletto (considering it's features and it's similarity to a BPW) may possibly be an option?

Yes, of course. Any BCD is an option. I'm just in favor of encouraging intelligent decisions, based on a full appreciation of options.

Personally, I wouldn't opt for a 'hybrid' bcd because I value the simplicity of a Hog harness and the positive effect of a metal backplate on my trim and control. Those are two advantages that I believe BP&W has over most 'hybrid' back-inflate BCDs.

 

[knowone]

I'm waiting for a photo of all the overinflated back inflate users face planting
and the overinflated jacket users gasping for breath with crushing chests:lifesaver:
half out of the water looking like they're standing on submerged bommies
or half drowning overweighted, without even considering ditching lead:lifesaver:

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

Another observation I have noticed over my few years on SB is that many BP/W users seem very passionate/aggressive about trying to convert others to using a BP/W while those that use either a Jacket or BI (and I know a BP/W is a BI) BC seem to be more "live and let live" about what BC folks use. Why do I say this? Simple. Check out most of the threads where a diver asks about what type of BC they should get and watch the responses. If a diver asks specifically a question like this about jacket bc's:

"I'm looking at getting my first set of gear and I'm trying to decide between Brand X BC vs Brand Y BC. Which would you go with?"

Within the first 3 or 4 posts, sometimes even the first post, someone will post and say something to this effect, "Let me save you the trouble of making a mistake by buying either of those. What you want is a BP/W. If you buy what you are looking at, you'll eventually sell it on e-bay and move up to a BP/W. Let me keep you from making the mistake I made and wasting your money."

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've seen that type of response! The thread will usually just turn into a "Why you don't want that and why you do want what I'm telling you." It becomes hard to even give the person the advice they were looking for because they get bombarded with getting a BP/W.

Now what happens when it's the other way. What happens when a person says this.

"I'm looking at getting a BP/W and can't decide between a Dive Rite vs this vs that. What do you guys think?"

You'll practically never, if ever, see the Jacket or BI users come on and tell the person they shouldn't buy a BP/W. They leave the discussion of which BP/W to buy to those who care or to those who have good input about BP/W's. They don't try and hijack the thread and turn it into why a Jacket/BI BC is better.

But the BP/W users just can't seem to be able to help themselves. They are overpowered by some force that makes them go all out to convert the poor misguided Jacket user who just doesn't know any better.

I believe that is greatly related to the fact the most BP/W users were at one time Jacket users and feel that they "wasted" a lot of time on Jackets and not BP/W's. Most all that have went to a BP/W after using/buying there want to give there opinion to the new user because Because they "have" used both...

When it is the other way and someone is asking about BP/W's the reason you may not see the large number of folks chanting Jackets over BP/W's is because they "have not" used both... No one wants anyone giving opinions about equipment they have not at least used...

I am not saying there not out there but as to date I do not know of any divers that went from BP/W to a Jacket and claim that they did not like the BP/W. This assuming they gave the BP/W a good run (owning one) not going off a bad experience from either a borrowed one or rental.

 

[BDSC]

I believe that is greatly related to the fact the most BP/W users were at one time Jacket users and feel that they "wasted" a lot of time on Jackets and not BP/W's. Most all that have went to a BP/W after using/buying there want to give there opinion to the new user because Because they "have" used both...

When it is the other way and someone is asking about BP/W's the reason you may not see the large number of folks chanting Jackets over BP/W's is because they "have not" used both... No one wants anyone giving opinions about equipment they have not at least used...

I am not saying there not out there but as to date I do not know of any divers that went from BP/W to a Jacket and claim that they did not like the BP/W. This assuming they gave the BP/W a good run (owning one) not going off a bad experience from either a borrowed one or rental.

Well you could be right. But I still think there is a dark force working in them!

 

[dmoore19]

Yes, of course. Any BCD is an option. I'm just in favor of encouraging intelligent decisions, based on a full appreciation of options.

Personally, I wouldn't opt for a 'hybrid' bcd because I value the simplicity of a Hog harness and the positive effect of a metal backplate on my trim and control. Those are two advantages that I believe BP&W has over most 'hybrid' back-inflate BCDs.

OK, so personally you wouldn't opt for the so called "hybrid". That I can deal with, then saying someone is stupid because they don't consider a BP/W is also your opinion?

I can remove the cumberbund from the Stiletto if I want, and may try that next. As for the weight, I can add the weight in the ditchable weight pockets on the back making the positive effect of the metal back plate and the need to have a lightweight back plate for different types of application for this tool.

As for the simplicity of the Hog Harness, I can unbuckle the shoulder straps and remove my gear without any problems, if I want. To me that gives value to the shoulder straps on my Stiletto in my opinion.

In the long run, in my opinion, I find the value of the features of my Stiletto equal to that of a BP/W. And since this whole discussion is based on opinion, We have reached a stalemate. Which is where the majority of BP/W discussions, like the political discussions in the Pub usually end. But I guess that's what these discussions are for. You aren't going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours, stalemate.