Swimming Skills Assessment

[Ghanguss]

I don't mean to push any buttons here, but you are joking about this swimming ability stuff, right?

But no one should ever dive and surpass their physical limits.

Im not saying you have to be a good swimmer, and hadnt noticed anyone else saying that either. Its personal preference really, and for myself I enjoy diving in challenging conditions, so I stay in shape for these situations.

As for not surpassing your limits, the best planning and intentions can sometimes place you outside your comfort zone, especially in the open ocean.

Factoring in the need to assist or rescue someone, physical fitness can play a major role also.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

TV hits the nail on the head first time. Probably not had enough diving experience to develop the machismo yet.

To (mis)quote Master Chief Billy Sunday in Men of Honor (sic);

"Swimming don't got d*cksh*t to do with deep-sea diving"

If you think swimming is really that important then the fact that certain disabled divers can't swim should automatically exclude them from diving. It doesn't matter that they give 100% effort, the logic that swimming ability is essential in divers leads to the conclusion that a lazy swimmer who can just meet the minimum swimming standard for entry to scuba will always be better than a disabled person who cannot swim a stroke but who is an otherwise perfectly capable diver.

From experience, I'd rather have a water-confident poor swimmer as a trainee diver than a competitive swimmer because at least the former doesn't imagine they'll be able to swim their way out of trouble like the latter.

Ironic that someone with no open water dives gets it.

Naval deep sea diving usually involves standing on the bottom and doing construction work. Mechanical aptitude is important to performance. I'm sure an underwater demolition team "frogman" of the era would appreciate increased performance when swimming to an extraction point as bullets flew by his head in combat.

Read Umberto Pelizzari's Manual of Freediving and you'll see how much swimming has to do with scuba diving as a recreational activity without construction, bullets, or the need to rescue or survive.

There are pages and pages explaining numerous stroke errors and fixes for a flutter kick alone. Chances are any diver on a boat who has complained of cramping or discomfort in knees, ankles, hips, the lower back, and neck after a dive may find that diving becomes more physically enjoyable with stroke error correction and properly strengthening the muscles involved. With the greater surface area of fins, stroke errors are more apparent and place more demand on muscles and connective tissue.

 

[TMHeimer]

[QUOTE=
If you think swimming is really that important then the fact that certain disabled divers can't swim should automatically exclude them from diving. It doesn't matter that they give 100% effort, the logic that swimming ability is essential in divers leads to the conclusion that a lazy swimmer who can just meet the minimum swimming standard for entry to scuba will always be better than a disabled person who cannot swim a stroke but who is an otherwise perfectly capable diver.



I have at times wondered about that very same thing. Thanks for putting it into words.

 

[Robert Kucera]

Hate to reveal my age but those of the, "Old School" were first made to be comfortable in and under the water then were allowed to add equipment as our skills developed. The phiolosophy was, the only thing equipment is used for is to extend our stay underwater. That translates to safe diving is a function of our knowledge and comfort in the water.

Yes things have changed and I would not suggest that us old senior divers are any better or safer in the water. Just more experienced.

As an instructor, testing a students comfort level as a swimmer and free diver can provide me with valuable information. It gives me a chance to evaluate thier level of fitness; can reveal a tendency to chlostrophobia; and can highlight ear and sinus issues before we commit to the deep.

Safe Diving
Ole Robert the Coachman

 

[Emparo821]

PADI does have a swim test, and the distance in more than enough for a competent instructor to evaluate whether or not you can swim.

The problem I have is that there is really not much of a standard, and really poor swimmers can slip through as the instructor has no basis for failing someone who can barely swim that distance but manages to finish.

I think the slowest person in my niece's class took almost a full half hour to swim it, while my niece at 12 did it in less than 10 minutes.

I am all for people being able to make their own decisions, I do not like when someone assumes the authority to protect adults from themselves.

But if you are going to have a swim test/standard

Im just sayin...

my problem with instructors not being able to fail if you can just barely complete this test is that if that person is my buddy (especially during training) and something with them goes wrong, they will panic alot faster. but if something goes wrong for me they will be useless and unable to help!

 

[Hickdive]

The quote from the movie was flippancy on my part but it did have the serious point that swimming has little to do with diving.

Read Umberto Pelizzari's Manual of Freediving and you'll see how much swimming has to do with scuba diving as a recreational activity without construction, bullets, or the need to rescue or survive.

I wouldn't presume to tell Mr Pelizzari how to freedive so why should he presume that freediving has anything to do with scuba? I have yet to read anything written by a freediver that has anything pertinent to scuba, in fact, read the circumstances surrounding Audrey Mestre's death and tell me freedivers have anything useful to contribute to scuba.

Freedivers are great at freediving but I've yet to hear of one who combined that with any great insight into scuba. Freedivers are record breakers not explorers hence they tend to avoid scuba because it offers fewer opportunities for their competitive urges.

There are pages and pages explaining numerous stroke errors and fixes for a flutter kick alone. Chances are any diver on a boat who has complained of cramping or discomfort in knees, ankles, hips, the lower back, and neck after a dive may find that diving becomes more physically enjoyable with stroke error correction and properly strengthening the muscles involved. With the greater surface area of fins, stroke errors are more apparent and place more demand on muscles and connective tissue.

Their diving finstroke may be wrong but that still doesn't mean they have to be anything more than competent swimmers. I find most of the problems you describe can be fixed simply by getting the diver to frog kick instead of flutter and by improving their trim and buoyancy control i.e. by teaching them diving skills rather than belittling their irrelevant swimming skills and then trying to improve them.

Diving, ultimately, is the "sport for active grandmothers". It doesn't have to be any more strenuous than a gentle stroll nor does it require any great competitive athleticism and the associated physical coaching to enjoy it. Pleasure divers are more PADI Seal Team than Navy SEAL nor do they have any need to be the latter.

 

[Robert Kucera]

To me the discussion comes down to the question of who am I training and for what activity. There are no absolutes. The discussion seems to go astray with the definition of swimming. Are we talking about the formalized sport that recognizes a nember of different strokes and sets the rules for competition or are we talking about watermanship skills, defined as comfort in an aquetic environment.
If your agency has a minimum watermanship skills test then you have your marching orders. That being said, the ultimeate responsability still lies with you the instructor for evaluating your students fitness for diving.
Safe Diving
Ole Robert the Coachman

 

[Trace Malinowski]

The quote from the movie was flippancy on my part but it did have the serious point that swimming has little to do with diving.



I wouldn't presume to tell Mr Pelizzari how to freedive so why should he presume that freediving has anything to do with scuba? I have yet to read anything written by a freediver that has anything pertinent to scuba, in fact, read the circumstances surrounding Audrey Mestre's death and tell me freedivers have anything useful to contribute to scuba.

Freedivers are great at freediving but I've yet to hear of one who combined that with any great insight into scuba. Freedivers are record breakers not explorers hence they tend to avoid scuba because it offers fewer opportunities for their competitive urges.



Their diving finstroke may be wrong but that still doesn't mean they have to be anything more than competent swimmers. I find most of the problems you describe can be fixed simply by getting the diver to frog kick instead of flutter and by improving their trim and buoyancy control i.e. by teaching them diving skills rather than belittling their irrelevant swimming skills and then trying to improve them.

Diving, ultimately, is the "sport for active grandmothers". It doesn't have to be any more strenuous than a gentle stroll nor does it require any great competitive athleticism and the associated physical coaching to enjoy it. Pleasure divers are more PADI Seal Team than Navy SEAL nor do they have any need to be the latter.

Why do you think Umberto doesn't know how to scuba dive?

I went from being a freediving instructor into technical training with GUE and I can tell you that the techniques in Umberto's book may be used by recreational divers, technical divers and freedivers alike. It's all related. He doesn't just fix the flutter kick. That was just one example. I combine freediving, sport diving, and technical diving, along with competitive swimming and personal training into great insights into diver education. My cave students learn how facial immersion taken from freediving will help them get into high flow caves without scooters far more comfortably and without needing to touch the walls. My tech students learn that they don't always need to frog kick in current and that a strong flutter kick in blue water with pointed toes is sometimes your best tool. My freediving students learn to backward kick in long blades so that they can maneuver more precisely. My intro to tech students learn to conserve energy and finesse the backward kick like the freedivers to save gas. My freedivers learn to use competitive swimming as a tool to learn to deal with CO2 buildup. My cave divers learn to use swimming in the same way to manage the work of breathing in flow. My sport diving students learn to improve their fitness ability for diving by going for long hard scuba swims allowing the training response to make the work of breathing through a regulator easier at the same time as they improve their endurance and kicking strength. Information keeps cycling among disciplines.

Maybe the attitude that the sport is for active grandmothers with no real need to develop any skills other than underwater breathing is why young people are largely absent? Every industry meeting I attend seems to be looking to attract young people to the sport. I'm writing an article for a magazine right now dealing with this subject.

Young people crave danger, excitement and challenge. In Pennsylvania, the Lackawanna County coal mine tour saw huge numbers of college students standing in line during the Chilean mining rescue.

Recently, I attended an auction for a dive shop closing. Some old mask boxes from the 1970's were being used to hold repair kits in the basement. On the boxes were artist illustrations of fit muscular men fighting sharks with spearguns. Maybe you no longer need to be fit? Maybe you no longer need to be muscular? Maybe you no longer need to be male? And, maybe it's no longer politically correct to fight sharks with spearguns? But, it would be nice if the sport would show some dignity and provide a challenge for people in that first open water class before it becomes about as thrilling as a bridge tournament.

 

[boulderjohn]

Recently, I attended an auction for a dive shop closing. Some old mask boxes from the 1970's were being used to hold repair kits in the basement. On the boxes were artist illustrations of fit muscular men fighting sharks with spearguns. Maybe you no longer need to be fit? Maybe you no longer need to be muscular? Maybe you no longer need to be male? And, maybe it's no longer politically correct to fight sharks with spearguns? But, it would be nice if the sport would show some dignity and provide a challenge for people in that first open water class before it becomes about as thrilling as a bridge tournament.

I must be confused.

It seems to me that you are saying that scuba instructors should make introductory scuba classes more challenging physically, not because it does any good in relation to scuba, but because it will make you feel like you are engaged in a more macho activity. You seem to weep for the good old days when diving with inferior equipment demanded a great deal of physical capacity and feel we should keep the same demands for beginning students, even though they are no longer necessary, for reasons that can best be described as nostalgic.

I can't believe that is what you meant, but it sure reads that way to me.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I must be confused.

It seems to me that you are saying that scuba instructors should make introductory scuba classes more challenging physically, not because it does any good in relation to scuba, but because it will make you feel like you are engaged in a more macho activity. You seem to weep for the good old days when diving with inferior equipment demanded a great deal of physical capacity and feel we should keep the same demands for beginning students, even though they are no longer necessary, for reasons that can best be described as nostalgic.

I can't believe that is what you meant, but it sure reads that way to me.

Every other sport encourages its participants to strive for the skills of its top competitors. Nearly everyone can enjoy a game of golf, for example. But, when that grandmother pays her golf pro for lessons she expects the absolute best coaching within her abilities. She knows Tiger Woods' game is the bar to try to meet. She may know she'll never play like that, but she knows where the bar stands. In scuba instruction, the prevailing attitude seems to be to trash the abilities of the top performers in favor of making excuses for why students don't need to know things or don't need to perform, rather than setting the bar high and letting students know they don't need to meet that bar to be safe, but to know where the bar is will keep it interesting. There are exceptions to this, but they are exactly that - exceptions.

Other sports aspire to the top. Yet, other sports are enjoyed by even larger masses of participants than diving. Diving has attempted to be so inclusive that it has taken away its hero element. Without that element there is nothing to which participants feel they need to aspire.

In this very thread, a poster with 4 pool dives "schooled" an instructor trainer examiner with 30 years of experience and thousands of real dives. Experience is why I know that swimming, freediving, recreational diving, technical diving and cave diving are all related. It's how I can teach a full cave student to reach the lips at Ginnie without touching the cave after I teach pull and glide with little effort. What have we done to this sport when our professionals have no credibility and our divers are taught not to aspire? Surfing, climbing, and paintball have sex appeal and mass appeal and lots of young people. If we advertise it for the grandmothers that's what we'll get. We need to have advertised programs for everyone and all abilities, because everyone should be able to dive, but we need to focus the heart and soul of the activity on the young-people who are driven to aspire to great challenges and who will bring a lifestyle and their peers to the sport in great numbers.

Attend DEMA or diving trade show and it's like going to a sock hop. Attend a surf show and it's like going to a rave. Being under the waves should be just as awesome as being on them.