Swimming Skills Assessment

[Thalassamania]

Trace, you are spot on. But the point that should be attended to (and that I think is at the root of much of the problem) is that typically agencies have made the big bucks and not those with the "skills of the top competitors." The agencies (well ... those that run or own the agencies) like it like that and strive to keep it like that. "Top Competitors" are frowned on and undercut by churning out huge numbers of "Pros" who keep wages down and who last only a year or two, but who's creation provides another "profit center."

 

[boulderjohn]

Every other sport encourages its participants to strive for the skills of its top competitors.

That isn't true of any of the sports I have played and received training in. In fact, having thought about it deeply, it is so far the opposite of the truth that I can't believe you use it as a rationale.

I have done ski racing and been trained for it. I have played competitive volleyball and am certified to coach it at a high level. I am certified to coach soccer by the USSA at a pretty high level. My high school basketball coaching record over 14 years has a winner percentage over 85% and a number of championships. My golf game is not great, and watching me you would be surprised at how many lessons I have had.

Every one of those sports takes people at their present level and prepares them to play the game they hope to play now and in the immediate future. If they go right to the highest level skills, they will fail. You need to look at what they are capable of doing now and prepare them for competition at the level they are playing.

Let's take skiing. Even people who have been trained at a pretty high level of skiing will be surprised to look at a slow-motion replay focusing on an Olympic skier take a GS turn, for they will see what looks like a direct violation of what they were taught to do. Skiers at that level using a turning technique that would be disastrous if taught to skiers who are not ready for it.

How about your golf example? Watch a pro tournament and watch Tiger Woods bringing a ball in from 120 yards. Watch how he takes a big divot, drops the ball above the hole, and watches it spin back to the hole. DO you think any teaching pro is going to teach that technique to that grandmother? How about Phil Mickelson taking two drivers with him at the Masters, one for when he wants to shape his drives so they turn right at the end and one for when he wants to turn the ball left at the end? Do you think your grandmother is ready for that? You honestly believe Tiger Woods' coach is telling him the same thing that beginning golfers are being taught

 

[boulderjohn]

It's how I can teach a full cave student to reach the lips at Ginnie without touching the cave after I teach pull and glide with little effort. What have we done to this sport when our professionals have no credibility and our divers are taught not to aspire? .

I have no idea what having people aspire to dicing greatness has to do with this conversation. However, one sure way to get people to aspire (remember my vocation is educational theory) is to make them successful at one level and then move them to the next. Introducing failure early on by forcing them to do what they are not ready to do at the moment is a way to prevent them from aspiring. It is a way to get them to quit.

Let's take your Ginnie example. If we were to dive Ginnie together for fun, I will pull and glide to the lips. I can even visualize some of my hand holds as I type. On the other hand, I am aware that my frog kicks do not have as much glide as I would like, so I would be very interested in having someone like you take a look and see what you can do to improve my technique. When I was there last month and was back further in the cave back where there was still flow but the floor was silt and there were no friendly rocks to pull on, I was very aware that I was getting minimal glide from that frog kick of mine. I was also aware that my teammate was getting more. Because I aspire to improve, I would certainly be happy to be instructed.

Because I want to focus on getting more glide on my frog kick while wearing a dry suit, steel doubles, and a stage bottle or two, it seems to me that my instruction and practice should look like that. I don't see how doing a crawl stroke with no gear on the surface is going to help me reach the goal to which I aspire.

As for aspiring to do it the way the professionals do, I have known a lot of dive professionals in my time, including a number of technical instructors. One of them (initials AG) competes in triathlons, so he does swim on the surface a lot, but I have never heard him even suggest it has any benefit for scuba. Although it is possible that some of them surface swim for skill and exercise without my knowing it, I don't know any other one who does, and I have never heard any of them even suggest that anything other than basic swimming skill is important for diving.

 

[boulderjohn]

I wanted to put write this part separately so it would not be buried.

I fully agree that basic scuba instruction could do a better job than it does. I have written about that in the Instructor to Instructor area, and the article on this for which I was the principle author has just now (yesterday I believe--my copy has not arrived) been published in the PADI professional journal. I think OW students should be able to perform all skills while neutrally buoyant in mid water when they finish their pool training, let alone by the time they finish their OW dives. As an instructor I do that with my students now, so I know it can be done without overtaxing their ability. I believe that recreational divers should be able to plan dives and manage air much more than is expected now, and I believe that can also be done without pushing their abilities too far.

In believing this, I agree with you about blurring the boundaries between technical diving and recreational diving. I fully believe much of what is considered to be technical diving should be taught at the recreational level, and I believe recreational divers will be all the better for it.

But I don't see how perfecting the crawl stroke fits in.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Young people crave danger, excitement and challenge.

I would be comfortable with that statement if you said "some young people."

I know that when I was younger I didn't crave danger, and I know many others who didn't either. That's not to say I didn't do anything that had risks when I was younger (or now), because I did, but it wasn't the risks that made it fun for me.

 

[seaducer]

If you think swimming is really that important then the fact that certain disabled divers can't swim should automatically exclude them from diving. It doesn't matter that they give 100% effort, the logic that swimming ability is essential in divers leads to the conclusion that a lazy swimmer who can just meet the minimum swimming standard for entry to scuba will always be better than a disabled person who cannot swim a stroke but who is an otherwise perfectly capable diver.

Disabled divers are not always fully certified, many have restrictions such as having to dive with 2 fully abled buddys who are certified specifically to dive with disabled people. It is precisely because their disability may impact their ability to operate competently in the water that those restrictions are in place.

Personally I would much rather dive with someone who is disabled but had the courage and grit to get certified than the "lazy swimmer who can just meet the minimum swimming standard for entry to scuba" any day of the week. The organisations that certify people with disabiities require the students to show far more competence before obtaining their card.

So your point is not really valid, unless of course you want to place the same type of restrictions on people who can barely swim or not swim at all as those placed on someone who is missing their legs, for example.

 

[temet vince]

TraceMalin, perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me like you're reaching in all directions, hoping to grasp something of substance because you feel like you have a bone to pick. Yes, we all know you are a great experienced diver and instructor with a lot of knowledge and skill. However, why are you so aggravated? With all your experience, don't you realize that scuba diving involves other people, and it's not necessarily the sport you want it to be, or that you dream it should be?

I don't know about other instructors, but my instructor never belittles any professionals, and PADI includes material in the beginner's textbook package that immediately shows a beginner the prestigiousness of reaching the Divemaster level. So I'm not sure where you get that professional's are downplayed or that we don't have high goals and aspirations.

In addition, when you said that an expert was "schooled" by someone with 4 pool dives, it just shows that you believe I have nothing to contribute to the community because of my lack of experience. And for the record, I just gave my opinion, and I didn't school anyone. But it is that exact attitude why young people avoid scuba diving. I can tell you that I absolutely hate meeting local veteran divers around my area, as 90% of them are pompous jerks who look down their nose at me just because I'm trying to learn how to dive.

Like I said, maybe I just misinterpreted everything you said.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

John,

Andrew is a great instructor, but not the definitive voice on all things diving. But, you may want to ask him if he thinks that his water polo and swimming background helped him achieve success as a diver in any way? I don't know what he'll say. In Tech 1 our worst student was the fastest swimmer. He had been on a swim team as a kid. But, after Tech 1, no one practiced harder than he did and became one of the first to become a cave and tech diver. Did swimming help him? I don't know. You'd have to ask him.

In my experience, I find value in swimming as a diver. It's another tool in the toolbox and I admire those who wish to improve that tool. I try to inspire my students to work on that tool as well as those tools that involve diving itself.

I find the distance per stroke drills I had in swimming helps me to help students improve their glide in both freediving and technical scuba. Working as an assistant for my truly awesome swim coach (champion college swimmer/Kona ironman) helped me look at "demo quality" kicks in tech diving in a whole new light. For example, the kicks in Andrew's Essentials video have several errors. Andrew is a world class diver, but I could see some things with a trained eye and fix them. Andrew is probably aware of them because he's a trained swimmer. We all have bad habits. If Andrew was competing in the Olympics of Fundamental Skills he might want coaching from a world class coach who could correct those errors. But, diving isn't measured in milliseconds like in the world of Michael Phelps. Good is good enough. But, my swimming background is something more I choose to bring to the table. In full cave class, it really allows me to teach something beyond circuits, traverses, drills and typical propulsion improvement. Completing dives like the Bone Room circuit and the mile run on twin AL80's happen because of what I learned as a swimmer.

We value what we value. Bruce Lee said, "Absorb what is useful." I've found swimming useful to help me save lives, teach better, enjoy the water more, and it gives me an edge over some other instructors with the type of feedback I can provide. I think by opening my dive students to what swimming can offer, the activity will give them some of the gifts it gave me and more. I would love all my DM's to take a lifeguard course as a prerequisite. I'd love all my instructors to join a good masters team for at least a couple of years.

Yesterday, I returned home to the mountains of Pennsylvania and decided to go get some coffee and use the wifi at Starbuck's. On my way home, I caught a glimpse of a trail into the PA State Game Lands that I had never noticed before while driving some rarely traveled back-roads. I decided to check it out. I discovered all kinds of cool things the commonwealth was doing for reforestation and some really awesome topography. I needed to get off the trails and go exploring. I had a fantastic day. Without a compass, I navigated by using the analog watch trick of bisecting the angle of the minute and hour hands to find South. While that skill is generally thought of as a wilderness survival skill it afforded me a much needed break from all things diving and allowed me to explore the woods in confidence. I had a blast! An unnecessary skill opened me to an afternoon of pure joy.

In the Turks & Caicos when I was teaching an instructor class, we saw all of our sharks while swimming to improve endurance and technique. We didn't see any while diving. It was also there that I ended up performing a swimming rescue with just a facemask in choppy surf and a rip. If I hadn't been back in the pool prior to the trip swimming laps, I don't think that would have been successful. So, swimming allowed us to enjoy nature and save a life. I'm all for swimming.

Bottom line. If it's fun do it. If it's not then you're just going to argue against it. While I agree with many of your points, I believe swimming is a skill of greater importance than you see it. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Your experiences make you believe you are right. My experiences make me believe that I'm right.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

TraceMalin, perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me like you're reaching in all directions, hoping to grasp something of substance because you feel like you have a bone to pick. Yes, we all know you are a great experienced diver and instructor with a lot of knowledge and skill. However, why are you so aggravated? With all your experience, don't you realize that scuba diving involves other people, and it's not necessarily the sport you want it to be, or that you dream it should be?

I don't know about other instructors, but my instructor never belittles any professionals, and PADI includes material in the beginner's textbook package that immediately shows a beginner the prestigiousness of reaching the Divemaster level. So I'm not sure where you get that professional's are downplayed or that we don't have high goals and aspirations.

In addition, when you said that an expert was "schooled" by someone with 4 pool dives, it just shows that you believe I have nothing to contribute to the community because of my lack of experience. And for the record, I just gave my opinion, and I didn't school anyone. But it is that exact attitude why young people avoid scuba diving. I can tell you that I absolutely hate meeting local veteran divers around my area, as 90% of them are pompous jerks who look down their nose at me just because I'm trying to learn how to dive.

Like I said, maybe I just misinterpreted everything you said.

Vince,

ScubaBoard is a large bladder evacuation contest mostly engaged in for sport, but stirs impassioned debate. I believe you contributed to the community just fine. My reply is pretty typical for me. To show you that there are no hard feelings, I'll give you a link to this group: Ozark Cave Diving Alliance Home Page. Arkansas has world class divers and you may want to inquire about future instruction from these members if you are the type of person who sets his standards high.

As a welcoming gesture to the team on my first day of college lacrosse practice, a couple defense guys ran me face first into a tree near the field the moment I put on my helmet. There was a permanent dent in the mask. Every year when the equipment came out of storage, it was easy for me to find my helmet and the guy who ran me into the tree with the most delight became my best friend. Sometimes you just need to pay your dues and sometimes respect has to be earned.

Tell you what, why don't you start a thread called, "How prestigious is the PADI divemaster rating?" and see what you learn. That would be my version of running you face first into a tree as some sort of "dues paid in full" good-spirited hazing.

Welcome to ScubaBoard!

 

[temet vince]

Thank you for the reply. I guess maybe I just misinterpreted what you typed before. It is very easy to do without hearing the actual voice behind the words.

I'm sorry if I insinuated hard feelings. I was more attempting to address the points in our posts logically, but perhaps my word choices added a sense of emotion that wasn't really there.

No hard feelings, my good man. The comment about divers with egos and the rite of passage was more for your article in that magazine. There are a lot of reasons why young people don't dive, and that is one of them. Another big one is that none of their friends dive either. College students today tend to care less about danger and thrill seeking and focus more on what will be fun, having a good time, and hanging out and sharing experiences with their friends.

However, this being said, I think that once college students are learning to dive and they get 'hooked' on it, as a community we should show them how they can excel by working hard and becoming really great. If the PADI courses are a joke compared to other certification organizations, I'd be the first one who would beg to switch to something more prestigious.

I can say that once college students become passionate about something, the majority of them will put in unforeseen amounts of effort to become recognized as a master at it, and desire the respect associated with skill. If they have a friend doing it too, then the passion is that much stronger. This is just what I've seen in my last 4 years at the University. Still, the most important 2 things for students are fun and friends (current friends; they won't start scuba diving expecting to make new ones.)

Finally, one of the biggest hurdles for students is the price. Scuba doesn't have to be that expensive (but it can be), but just the initial price of the open water course isn't cheap when you factor in we have no money anyways. I think the best way to get college students to scuba dive is to offer it as a credit course through the university, as students generally are immune to the prices of credit hours since they all are unbearable anyways.

Maybe all that will help you with your article, and maybe not. Regardless, I'm sure I'll be seeing you around here!