Swimming Skills Assessment

[Lobzilla]

Let me personally vouch for Trace that I have not heard or seen him being profane/abusive in a class.

The reason why some people are hesitant to dive with him is that he keeps you honest and some people's ego cannot deal with that.

Get to close to a line with your manifold ... you get bubbles behind you back and your buddy some other 'reward' for not warning you. Get to far away from your team...guess what, you are now OOG and have to get gas from team. Get out of trim and silt the place up ... whoops here goes your mask.

What you learn there is that YOU are your worst enemy in the water, not instructors like Trace or Ed Hayes. In the absence of stringent teachers, the water may someday write you a 'ticket' that you are unable to pay. (Ed is more 'in your face' but he was the first instructor where I felt emotionally that someone actually cared about me and my safety, rather than just going through a syllabus).

As far as the original topic is concerned, I like SCUBA because I suck at swimming

Honestly, I passed the GUE-F swim test easily but our instructor intern, a top-ranked triathlete, needed to show how you can complete the laps in a little over a third of my time . So what? My ego was struggling more with the fact that his trim is better, his buoyancy is better, his frog-kick, his back-kick, his...EVERYTHING ELSE that makes a diver.

While priorities are important, I have however added rescue swimming (towing another diver) to my training schedule as a result of this thread. (What is a good training aid to simulate the vic?)

 

[TSandM]

I know. Every kid gets a trophy today. We need them to feel safe.

Some of my fondest memories were angry coaches.

Lacrosse Coach: SCREAM, SCREAM, SCREAM, SPITTLE, SPITTLE, SPITTLE, SCREAM, SCREAM, SCREAM!!!

Me: Coach, I'm only saying this because I care. There are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing. (I forget what movie I stole that from now.)

Coach: GLARE ... SILENCE ... FLARING NOSTRILS ... GLARE.

I used the same line on Ed Hayes once. I love that man. He's passionate.

I read this as at least condoning if not admiring abusive coaching. (And, BTW, I did not accuse Trace of BEING abusive, just of liking that kind of teaching.)

I have taken a lot of classes from instructors who used my own errors to show me my weak points, and I think that kind of instruction is excellent and extremely productive. The debriefs from those dives were dispassionate but sometimes merciless -- but the instructors stepped in if they saw the students becoming truly discouraged, and provided some encouragement and moral support. You need that, if you are going to set yourself at that kind of bar.

Trace, I'm sure I'd enjoy one of your classes, unless you made me do a swim test in it . . .

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Lynne,

All I meant was that looking back on life some of my fondest sports memories were of angry coaches.

That day, my attack line, Eugene, Mark and I screwed up a play. Our coach had what Bill Cosby would describe as a conniption. He held us responsible and let the middies off the hook. Coach was so furious he threw and broke his brand new pair of Serengeti sunglasses. As we were getting chewed out, he grabbed my facemask and held onto it and started to just spew venom in my direction. At first, I felt ashamed. But, as he yelled and yelled and spittle flew into my face from his nearly psychotic snarl, the message began to fade as my brain began moving back toward what was happening on the field. He started sounding like a vehemently angry version of a Charles Schultz Peanuts' teacher's voice which became just comical. When he finally paused, that reply about decaffeinated coffee just sounded like the right thing to say. I think I took it from the Val Kilmer movie, Real Genius, but I'm not sure.

While I felt really bad for a few minutes and tried to avoid coach the rest of the day on the ride back to our campus, that memory has given me over 20 years of laughter. Our coach had a quick temper, but looking back his antics were priceless! I'm enriched by the humor of having endured it. He was such a character. If he had been as professional as society now demands I wouldn't crack up to this day over all manner of incidents. We spend so much time worrying about how people should conduct themselves so as not to offend, how to create "safe" environments for our kids, and all that jazz, but I believe we somehow rob ourselves of the richness of life in the process.

So, yeah, Coach had a temper, but the guy drove an hour from his real career every evening to coach us and stayed until midnight. We had 3 practices a day. Morning throw run by the captains, an after dinner practice, and then a 10 - midnight box (indoor) lacrosse practice scrimmage. His door was always open so to speak and he motivated us to be active in the community off the field and took care of us. Today, they'd probably fire him.

I always thought he disliked me from some of the jokes he pulled. At times, I really resented some things. Like the time he yelled something very politically incorrect to a girl passing by on campus then turned to me and started reprimanding me as if I had been the one to comment on her breasts. But, when I graduated he had the team photo blown up and framed for me as a gift with everyone's signature on it and he offered me a job as an assistant coach.

His way was just his way. It made him unique. It made him "Coach."

 

[TSandM]

I worked with two fairly abusive attending surgeons during my residency. One of them was someone from whom I learned an enormous amount, and whose ideas continue to shape my practice today. I forgave him for throwing me across a room when he didn't like what I was doing; a friend had trouble forgiving him for grabbing the guy by the neck and slamming him up against a wall. But nobody reported him, because we were afraid, and because he was damned good at what he did.

For the other man, I have no real respect at all. He was foul-mouthed and abusive, and gave little effort to teaching -- nor did I learn anything that carried forward from working with him. I did learn to stay out of his way, and what not to do to avoid being raked over the coals.

I do not love either one of them, and I never did. I loved the man who led by example, and whose gentle question, "Was that the best action you could have taken in that circumstance?" could reduce me to tears.

The whip can make you dance, but can't make you enjoy it.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

The whip can make you dance, but can't make you enjoy it.

That's what she said.

 

[Hickdive]

Disabled divers are not always fully certified, many have restrictions such as having to dive with 2 fully abled buddys who are certified specifically to dive with disabled people. It is precisely because their disability may impact their ability to operate competently in the water that those restrictions are in place.

Personally I would much rather dive with someone who is disabled but had the courage and grit to get certified than the "lazy swimmer who can just meet the minimum swimming standard for entry to scuba" any day of the week. The organisations that certify people with disabiities require the students to show far more competence before obtaining their card.

So your point is not really valid, unless of course you want to place the same type of restrictions on people who can barely swim or not swim at all as those placed on someone who is missing their legs, for example.

You clearly missed my point, so I'll try and re-phrase it.

Swimming is skill is NOT an essential in diving. If it was, as the OP suggests, then disabled people who couldn't swim would be automatically excluded no matter how grit they had.

I do not support that position at all, I was simply pointing out that it is the logical conclusion to the OP's position.

I trust this clarifies the matter.

 

[Hickdive]

My cave students learn how facial immersion taken from freediving will help them get into high flow caves without scooters far more comfortably and without needing to touch the walls. My tech students learn that they don't always need to frog kick in current and that a strong flutter kick in blue water with pointed toes is sometimes your best tool. My freediving students learn to backward kick in long blades so that they can maneuver more precisely. My intro to tech students learn to conserve energy and finesse the backward kick like the freedivers to save gas. My freedivers learn to use competitive swimming as a tool to learn to deal with CO2 buildup. My cave divers learn to use swimming in the same way to manage the work of breathing in flow. My sport diving students learn to improve their fitness ability for diving by going for long hard scuba swims allowing the training response to make the work of breathing through a regulator easier at the same time as they improve their endurance and kicking strength. Information keeps cycling among disciplines.

But, plainly, not everyone dives in high-flow caves etc. So why present entry-level divers with the prospect that they'll not be good divers because they're not into competitive swimming or have any ambition to set world records in cave penetration?

Maybe the attitude that the sport is for active grandmothers with no real need to develop any skills other than underwater breathing is why young people are largely absent? Every industry meeting I attend seems to be looking to attract young people to the sport. I'm writing an article for a magazine right now dealing with this subject.

I daresay that active grandmothers would still have to develop all the relevant skills; just that they needn't feel that they're going through Hell Week to join the SEALS whilst doing it.

Young people crave danger, excitement and challenge. In Pennsylvania, the Lackawanna County coal mine tour saw huge numbers of college students standing in line during the Chilean mining rescue.

They may well do, in which case they should be rightly disappointed in diving. There should be the challenge of learning a new skill and the excitement of exploring new places but diving isn't an adrenalin sport. People who think it is or should be aren't doing it right.

Recently, I attended an auction for a dive shop closing. Some old mask boxes from the 1970's were being used to hold repair kits in the basement. On the boxes were artist illustrations of fit muscular men fighting sharks with spearguns. Maybe you no longer need to be fit? Maybe you no longer need to be muscular? Maybe you no longer need to be male? And, maybe it's no longer politically correct to fight sharks with spearguns? But, it would be nice if the sport would show some dignity and provide a challenge for people in that first open water class before it becomes about as thrilling as a bridge tournament.

So, if you're not fit, male and muscular you have no dignity?

I think we have completely opposite views on what diving is about. The good thing is that the activity offers such an enormous range of experiences that individuals can pick where they want to be and what they want to achieve. However, the implication from your OP and the last quote above is that you want to somehow exclude people who don't hold the same ambitions or physical attributes as yourself.

I think perhaps you would benefit from appreciating the fact that what is not a challenge for you may be a huge hurdle for someone else and that they will gain just as much personal satisfaction from overcoming that as you would from doing whatever it is you do with American Football or another competitive sport. In short, I think you need a little more empathy.

 

[Lobzilla]

Recently, I attended an auction for a dive shop closing. Some old mask boxes from the 1970's were being used to hold repair kits in the basement. On the boxes were artist illustrations of fit muscular men fighting sharks with spearguns. Maybe you no longer need to be fit? Maybe you no longer need to be muscular? Maybe you no longer need to be male? And, maybe it's no longer politically correct to fight sharks with spearguns? But, it would be nice if the sport would show some dignity and provide a challenge for people in that first open water class before it becomes about as thrilling as a bridge tournament.

So, if you're not fit, male and muscular you have no dignity?

I think we have completely opposite views on what diving is about. The good thing is that the activity offers such an enormous range of experiences that individuals can pick where they want to be and what they want to achieve. However, the implication from your OP and the last quote above is that you want to somehow exclude people who don't hold the same ambitions or physical attributes as yourself.

I think perhaps you would benefit from appreciating the fact that what is not a challenge for you may be a huge hurdle for someone else and that they will gain just as much personal satisfaction from overcoming that as you would from doing whatever it is you do with American Football or another competitive sport. In short, I think you need a little more empathy.

I think that Trace is trying to make a different point. It is not about exterior physical attributes, it is about whether you visibly take pride in your craft.

When I sit at the local airport and watch airplanes land I would say that 9 out of 10 pilots try to do the best job they can. Some succeed sooner, others later.

In scuba diving the ratio is almost inverse. The majority of divers do not seem to care that they bumble through the water like baitfish with a hook through the spine rather than looking remotely like the 'pinnacle of creation' (or evolution depending on you religious viewpoint) they claim to be with their mouth. Dignity has something to do with how you actually propel yourself through life.

The usual picture on a vacation dive would be less painful if OW instructors would occasionally lead by example and show what control under water looks like (instead of replacing their knee patches on a weekly basis). Not that the students are supposed to copy that at day two. But at least they would have a mental image of what to strive for.

IMO it also would be good if there would be a 'junior-underwater-explorer' program for kids and teens that are too young for tec and cave training but like to excel in sports. Something that challenges their minds and bodies a little more than the usual rototiller-mills. My nephew was reprimanded in an OW class when he tried dolphin swim and frog kick; that is just sad.

But I guess it is politically more correct if the few people who aspire to the behavioral grace of the marine life we visit are labeled as 'elitist' by those who behave underwater like the hordes in a shopping mall - overweight, overstuffed, unbalanced, and minutes away from a coronary incident.

The fact that coronary incidents are one of the three leading causes of scuba fatalities brings us back nicely to the original topic of regular swimming exercise

 

[Lobzilla]

Hey Trace,

What are the dates for the 2011 Freediving Day and Swimming Clinic For Divers at Dutch?

Another cool idea would be today's version of "muscular men fighting sharks with spearguns" - a Scuba Speargun Biathlon. (Navigate and swim to 'range' as fast as possible, receive loaded speargun and shoot at target, then swim to next station, penalty for misses).

 

[Blue Sparkle]

I think that Trace is trying to make a different point. It is not about exterior physical attributes, it is about whether you visibly take pride in your craft.

That may be, but I don't think his posts/points come across that way.

The majority of divers do not seem to care that they bumble through the water like baitfish with a hook through the spine rather than looking remotely like the 'pinnacle of creation' (or evolution depending on you religious viewpoint) they claim to be with their mouth. Dignity has something to do with how you actually propel yourself through life.
...

But I guess it is politically more correct if the few people who aspire to the behavioral grace of the marine life we visit are labeled as 'elitist' by those who behave underwater like the hordes in a shopping mall - overweight, overstuffed, unbalanced, and minutes away from a coronary incident.

Okay, but it almost seems like you are setting up a false dichotomy. Either one agrees with Trace's view wherein those he-men on the vintage equipment boxes and the tough-love coaches are what make one great; or else one is an uncaring schlub with horrible diving technique, no dignity, and clogged arteries.

I just don't see those as being the only two choices. I take pride in doing things as cleanly and gracefully as possible, even though I have not been trained in your/Trace's style. I love swimming and am reasonably good at it, yet I'm not an athletic lap swimmer (due in part to not having a pool within reasonable distance).

You also imply that people like me (i.e. not like you) are crying out for "politically correct" mealy-mouthed un-earned certification, and that we are calling you elitist. Well, I'm certainly not. I'm simply saying that there is more than one style of learning, and that I think people can become good, dignified, caring divers with more than one of those styles.

Although, that said, I am starting to get the feeling that you may be elitist. But it is NOT because you aim high, nor is it because you are a technically proficient diver, or a fit diver. It's because you are more or less implying that the rest of us are hordes of uncaring slugs because we are not like you. Ouch.

Blue Sparkle