GUE/DIR/WKPP vs the world?

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I am sorry for being so green - these are tangential questions, but the responses will help me to make sense of this.


1. I have read (in this thread) about the horrible 90's and the fatalities. Did cave diving certifications exist in the 1990s?[/quote]

The true era that was so bad was the early 70s,which led to cave diving almost be outlawed. This is where you got the advent of accident analysis,and training we understand now. The 90s themselves weren't really that bad as far as accidents were concerned,but the 90's is when you saw any discussion of nitrox at DEMA being banned,to sudden acceptance of technical type diving. With commericialization and recreationalization of tech diving,you saw an explosion of certification agencies,and instructors. The internet became a factor in the 90s for recreational scuba. The internet and tech forums allowed discussion on a level never seen before,and this led to unrestrained flame wars,finger pointing,and any level of name calling usually reserved for the preschool level.

2. In the 90's were there really that many poorly trained, but certified cave divers, or could the fatalities largely be attributed to un-certified cave divers? If the former, then there seem to have been problems with certification criteria. If the latter, then certification criteria may have been reasonable but people chose to dive beyond their limits.

The 70's was the era of untrained cave diving fatalities. The 90's in cave diving is when you saw the true recreationalization and commercialization of the sport. Most gear at that point was homemade or modified OW gear,but now you have manufacturers catering to the tech crowd. You also had a record number of people becoming certified,and conversely a record number of instructors,with some making a living at teaching cave diving. Were some people poorly trained? I can't answer that,but if you have someone traveling 1000 miles to be certified,paid their money,what would their reaction be if they were told they didn't pass and you need to come back.

3. Where were the WKPP/DIR divers originally certified in cave diving? The WKPP/DIR divers may have perfected what they were taught, but were their contributions revolutionary and innovative, or small refinements upon criteria that were established by those who came before them (their instructors, mentors, and peers)?

The original founders -Gavin,Main,and English ,and the next generation GI3 and JJ were certified by either NACD or NSS-CDS. In fact JJ taught NSS-CDS. During the 90's Hogarthian configuration was taking hold,and was out of Bill Main's desire to simplify and streamline,but at this point Bill wasn't active WKPP,just his personal ambition. This Hogarthian philosophy was causing some uphevel in the cave diving community in the 90s,because there was some strong opposition to changing from configurations they were used to. This gradually gained acceptance,and has evolved into a further extension which is now DIR. The WKPP have perfected their technique of team diving,which has led to a pretty good safety (I say pretty good because it isn't perfect,just not publicized),and they had some good innovations ie breathing stages but not touching back gas etc. There were some crazy ideas that GI3 used to expouse,like using your inflator hose as an emergency regulator (people I knew who practiced that almost drowned). GUE and DIR have left an after effect,which I think some is good-cave certs that expire ,to not so good-one configuration for all types of diving (ie people who feel they must breathe off stages only will carry 3 stages in somewhere like Peacock,and beat the hell out of the cave)

With all things there is an evolution,and cave diving has experienced several. All have left an impression,and hopefully we have become savvy enough to reject the negative,and accept the positive. Discussions like this and on other forums are good because it allows us to see what is crazy ie people who openly discuss creative gas rules to the more important. As a history minor I learned if you don't understand your past then you are doomed to relive it,so bringing up the 90s and earlier helps us to see some of our follies,and not want to repeat them.
 
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Please describe to me a recent situation or person(s) that you would liken to the "Jackass" franchise in the cave diving community. Your analogy sucks.
I was speaking of a de-evolution of sorts, from which there are many more people today doing incredibly foolish activities, and with seemingly less thought, less social connection, and less concern for the consequences.


Based on what? There are other deep caves out there. YouTube exists outside of Wakulla County, yet its not responsible for anyone out there kacking themselves elsewhere. Based on the '90s???
I was speaking of a cultural and media based change. Today Youtube allows foolish behavior to be heavily rewarded with massive exposure. Nothing like this was possible in the 90's. It can allow a Mount Everest type challenge to become a media circus....It is hard to imagine how you can not see this.







Based on what? 20 years ago? The community has learned alot since then, not excluding the WKPP.
20 years ago training was worse, but people were more likely to attempt smarter behavior back then...today, a segment that really did not exist back then, has become large, highly visible, and could become a problem in cave diving at any time.
This is a change that happened to our society, and it is childish of you to assume that the cave diving community will somehow have excluded all of these jackass types.
Nothing of what you're describing is rearing is ugly head elsewhere, but I'm sure thats what the WKPP would like for landowners and park managers to believe.
Ignore history and it will repeat. Over 90 percent of Americans slept through history classes in school, and are now shockingly unaware of how virtually EVERYTHING happening today has happened countless times before---and could have been prevented by an educated public , rather than an apathetic one. In this cave diving instance, you fail to see the similarities....Fine, keep sleeping :)
 
I'm not ignoring the '90s, I'm not sure why thats so hard to get through a couple people's thick skulls. I'm saying we're better than that, because of what we learned in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s.

How about some examples of the de-evolution of the sport? Examples of the media or cultural based changes that are creating Everest dives? WE HAVE OTHER DEEP DIVES AVAILABLE TO US ALREADY AND PEOPLE AREN'T KACKING ON THE REGULAR BASIS - THIS INCLUDES THE WAKULLA-LEON SYSTEM.

This new segment of divers that we have now, not present in the '90s... where are they?



Its not sleeping, its just not buying into your vaporware, your BS, your rhetoric. There's a huge difference.
 
If all this thread is about is to determine if the WKPP is actively lobbying against other divers and to keep the site closed, then I would say that its safest to assume that they are.

That may be what the thread is about but IMO the WKPP are not the villans here, if indeed there are any villans at all.

The WKPP is a private organization to my understanding, and as such they are certainly within their rights to lobby for whatever they see as being on their own behalf. We also as private citizens or groups are free to do the same.

The problem here, if there is one ( I'm not up on all of this so I am leaving the issue open) is that a government is showing favoritism for one group over all others.

Unless the state intends to close Wakulla to all divers when the research is concluded, they need to open Wakulla to all divers now. (unless those divers would be interfering with the research)

If they do intend to close Wakulla to all diving, they should just say so, then there is no confusion or implication of underhandedness.

It is not up to WKPP or any other private group to lobby on behalf of all others, unless they are raising funds for that purpose. It is up to the government to make sure everyone has an equal opportunity, what you do with that opportunity is up to you...
 
I'm not ignoring the '90s, I'm not sure why thats so hard to get through a couple people's thick skulls. I'm saying we're better than that, because of what we learned in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s.

First, several posters in this thread have lamented about how rude and arrogant George was in the nineties, in discussions on the internet....You however, seem to think it is fine for you to be arrogant and insulting, far more so than you would EVER attempt in person...while I try to refrain from the WWF stuff I enjoyed in years past....
In any event, what "some people with thick skulls" are not getting, is that for many people, NOTHING was learned from the 70's, 80's or 90's.
How about some examples of the de-evolution of the sport? Examples of the media or cultural based changes that are creating Everest dives? WE HAVE OTHER DEEP DIVES AVAILABLE TO US ALREADY AND PEOPLE AREN'T KACKING ON THE REGULAR BASIS - THIS INCLUDES THE WAKULLA-LEON SYSTEM.
I spoke of de-evolution of society and people in general, and this may escape those who are among the de-evolved :)
If the public is less educated, less interested in learning, less concerned about their effects on others ( in a statistical sense) than it was 20 years ago, then it would be kind of surprising if the people who become divers did not reflect these statistics as well.
Media examples are rampant in many other sports. Perhaps all the closures in caves, and the LACK of major publicity for sites like Wakulla, has protected them from an onslaught of behaviors charicteristic of Jackass candidates. If you and others managed to get huge media attention for the opening of "the Everest of Cave Diving", perhaps this could drive some of the de-evolved we see weekly on recreational charter boats, to begin planning their "ultimate adventure"....

This new segment of divers that we have now, not present in the '90s... where are they?
Like I just said, whatever percentage exists in the general population, that same percentage is likely to exist in diving. It may be mostly manifested in recreational open water diving, as it is much easier for a "farm animal" to get certified for open water, and it is also extremely hard to do something so stupid that you will die on most recreational dives in open water. We see them heavily concentrated every year for mini-lobster season, and some do manage to remove themselves from the gene pool, but they apparently do not see cave diving as a thrill or adventure to pursue...at least not yet they dont. Again, with your efforts, maybe you can glorify cave diving in media they frequent, and help them gain access by lobbying the state...maybe, if you try really hard, you can create those statistics for CAVE DIVING DEATHS that you are so concerned about not seeing today.



Its not sleeping, its just not buying into your vaporware, your BS, your rhetoric. There's a huge difference.

At least we agree there is a huge difference between the way I understand the world, and the way you do ( or don't) :D
 
Wakulla is not unique, dives to those depths can be done(including in the Wakulla-Leon system) - but yet the deaths arent' happening. You have provided ZERO examples of the de-evolved, "Jackass" types that you claim are rampant in the current day of diving. There are arguably many "Everests" in cave diving, the most famous being Eagles Nest - which is still open for diving, daily, without any checks or balances.

Vaporware
 
Wakulla is not unique, dives to those depths can be done(including in the Wakulla-Leon system) - but yet the deaths arent' happening. You have provided ZERO examples of the de-evolved, "Jackass" types that you claim are rampant in the current day of diving. There are arguably many "Everests" in cave diving, the most famous being Eagles Nest - which is still open for diving, daily, without any checks or balances.

Vaporware

Lots of luck with your "mission". I'm done with this thread.
 
Dan,
I am GUE trained already: T1 and C2. I have additional trimix training with another agency. If I had a permit I wouldn't allow anyone to tag onto it either, they can get their own. But please stop telling everyone who is not part of WKPP that they are DIW, too stupid, jackassery, or lazy to dive Wakulla. You are generating nothing but additional animosity for WKPP and by extension GUE.

I would dive Wakulla to just to see the mastodon bones. I don't live in FL. I have no research plan. And I have minimal paleontology credentials to apply for one. I am just an educated tourist. However its my understanding I wouldn't even be in the cave.

I resent you and State Parks telling me that I cannot see those amazing cultural resources for my own good.
 
Dan,
I am GUE trained already: T1 and C2. I have additional trimix training with another agency. If I had a permit I wouldn't allow anyone to tag onto it either, they can get their own. But please stop telling everyone who is not part of WKPP that they are DIW, too stupid, jackassery, or lazy to dive Wakulla. You are generating nothing but additional animosity for WKPP and by extension GUE.
I can't see how my posts could possibly be percieved in this manner....
I was offering my opinion, that there is a population in America that enjoys behavior similar to what is seen on the TV show "jackass'...and, there are people in America that don't understand personal responsibility ( the suit over a coffee burning incident example I used), and that do not believe in earning things--they feel "entitled".

To me, this is very far away from what you are suggesting I was doing. Maybe you just read a post out of context, but I do not see how I could have generated such an unintended message.

I would dive Wakulla to just to see the mastodon bones. I don't live in FL. I have no research plan. And I have minimal paleontology credentials to apply for one. I am just an educated tourist. However its my understanding I wouldn't even be in the cave.

I resent you and State Parks telling me that I cannot see those amazing cultural resources for my own good.

There is a big stretch between my saying that the state is correct in making certain that those who have access to pristine and dangerous areas are well screened....and the suggestion that I don't want you to dive there....

...If you have the skills and training, there should be a path. Whether it is via WKPP, or there becomes some offshoot program--- or some other entity that can screen and mentor and enforce safety protocols.....I absolutely would favor this.
 
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