Huh. I always thought the biggest contributing factor to diving accidents was grunt stupidity.
So you want to take your kid diving...
- Thread starter DandyDon
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Huh. I always thought the biggest contributing factor to diving accidents was grunt stupidity.
scubadobadoo
Contributor
If your car is 2 feet from my car then we are "diving together" and we are "drive buddies." I didn't choose to be next to you and I have no idea who "you" are or how you drive or live your life but there you are. That's why driving is more dangerous than diving. From home to work I may have thousands of drive buddies and hundreds of them drive like idiots, dozens are drunk, putting make-up on, eating breakfast, lighting a cig, spilling their coffee, picking their nose, yelling at the kids, talking on a cell phone, looking at one of the six accidents you mentioned and not the road, and many of them have heart issues and god knows what else and I have zero choice in the matter. It's "you" that worries me, not me... unless I black out (LOL) or unless I make a mistake.
So yes, ALL those people are on my boat. The highway IS the boat.
koozemani
Contributor
I can't argue your point. Doesn't mean I'll feel any less guilt about getting them into diving, if they so choose.
DandyDon, what caused the 6 folks injuries? Do you see any common links to the injuries? Did they all happen at the same place? (even different times)
scubadobadoo
Contributor
Good question. And Don, I am just playing Devil's Advocate a little. I understand and agree with much of what you are saying as well.
robbcayman
Contributor
Don, I normally agree with you, but I think you're off on this one. I think diving is a fairly safe when people are paying attention. I know a lot of divers and none of them have died. Then again, these divers aren't doing risky dives to begin with. On the other hand, I've known several teenagers and friends who have died in car wrecks. I would say the odds of you dying in a car wreck vs dying during rec dives the odds are more likely you die in a car wreck. There are so many factors with a car i.e. drunk drivers, running red lights, hit from behind, side impact, high speed wrecks, drivers asleep behind the wheel, drivers texting, drivers putting on makeup etc... Whereas, with diving, you aren't so worried about the reckless conduct of another person. In short, your safety is more in your hands when diving.
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Actually some were somewhat related...
The first three were on one group trip. I was put off by the heavy drinking & party atmosphere encouraged by the leader in order to make sure the group was happy and certainly objected, to no avail.
The first guy passed out on a shore dive the first day, was revived, then later admitted that he'd not been taking his seizure meds. :shocked2: He said he was going to sell his gear but last I heard, he still dives with that group - supposedly with a doctor's approval.
Couple days later, a guy took a hit and a couple of chamber rides. I was in charge of that boat that day, the O2 tank was empty, so I had him drink a quart of kool-aid I was carrying. He felt much better by the time we got him to shore, but if you have DAN insurance and call for O2 on a boat in Cozumel - well, the doctors called it so who am I to doubt.
At the end of that week, a diabetic alcoholic passed out on the boat dock before boarding so not really a diving injury. He's since nearly died, amputated a foot, but rebounded and now dives on trips with his daughter and a hired DM on every dive.
There were some other stunts that week, mostly booze related, but no other injuries. I quit traveling with that group for a few years.Couple days later, a guy took a hit and a couple of chamber rides. I was in charge of that boat that day, the O2 tank was empty, so I had him drink a quart of kool-aid I was carrying. He felt much better by the time we got him to shore, but if you have DAN insurance and call for O2 on a boat in Cozumel - well, the doctors called it so who am I to doubt.
At the end of that week, a diabetic alcoholic passed out on the boat dock before boarding so not really a diving injury. He's since nearly died, amputated a foot, but rebounded and now dives on trips with his daughter and a hired DM on every dive.
The next was on a group I organized to the Florida Keys, but not a part of my group - a regular customer of the Op who was on the same boat. He solo dived the wreck we were on, the Duane I think, apparently ran out of air, bobbed to the surface unconscious down current. We couldn't move as we had divers down but another boat picked him up and ran him to shore. We were scheduled to go out again on that boat after lunch, which probly would have canceled if he'd croaked but we heard he was arguing with the nurses on whether he had to stay the night so we did another trip.
After some years, I tried the above referenced group again on the assurances that they had calmed down, and on a liveaboard known to run a safe & tight trip - only to see the epileptic diver mentioned above show up.
I had swore I wouldn't ever dive around him at all again, but it was a liveaboard so I was stuck. He was the only air diver scheduled, and the captain didn't know, so they did a discover Nitrox course on him so he could dive Enhanced Air. 
I just avoided it all, and nothing went bad. I thot I'd include that in the reply tho since it was the same group for most of the accidents.I went to Coz with them, got assigned a former diver/Inst getting back into diving as a buddy first day - and she was better on air that I, so waved me off when I ran low. Once back at the dock, I refused to buddy with her again, went to lunch and a nap. She went out again and passed out in the water, but was saved. The group started breaking up the next morning tho as hurricane Dean hadn't veered off like we'd hoped, so the leader left another lady to tend to the injured diver in the hospital and most left. A medevac had to skirt the storm to fly in from Florida for her but she got to Miami, spent weeks in ICU with a few more chamber rides, never did get a diagnosis, then DAN provided nurses to escort her by train home. I got out the day after most others left. Never did get all the answers I wanted as that group avoids such discussions but I heard she was traveling with them again just to snorkel.
I did one more trip with that group, mostly to get the money they owed me on the canceled trip - an Exuma liveaboard, and a diver had a cardiac event on the first dive, altho I didn't hear about it until supper. I guess he'd been hiding in his room until his roomie found him? A nearby yacht sent over a speed boat to take him back to the island along with the group leader. Somehow the medevac got fumbled, they flew to Nassau, spent the night in a hospital there, finally got to Ft.Lauderdale the next day and surgery. Last I heard he was still among the living.
Well, that's the summary; make of it what you will. I don't travel with groups anymore, as I've seen some things on the others I tried too.
This thread had been hijacked anyway...
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Wow that is quiet the series of events. It's true that booze and diving don't mix! Hopefully you have seen your share and won't see any other mishaps. I only have a fraction of the numbers of dives you have, but thankfully haven't seen any accidents. I do carry O2 on every dive that I go on, unless the boat has some. I never actually check to make sure its full though...that is a total fail on the part of the boat for having empty O2 in your incident. I don't know the statistics for driving, or other sports that people may want to compare diving to, but DAN says that there is one decompression injury for about every 1700 dives made. That seems pretty dangerous to me.....BUT I bet a lot of that can be mitigated by not being those people that you used to travel with.
From what I have been able to garner in a whole 7 minutes of internet research is that the mortality rate for diving is .011 to .018, and for driving it is .014 to .015, or statistically speaking exactly the same.
I have been reading the posts that Don quoted, especially since I have been diving with my son since he was 12 (he is now 15, all the way through Rescue with me and now we are working towards master diver).
My stats bear opposite info from yours Don. I have been on over 3,000 dives now in my 25 years of diving. I have never ever, not once, seen a diving accident, ambulance or body bag. The last 7 years of my dive history has been here in Curacao where every weekend I am not only diving, but I am doing dives in locations where 100s of other dives are being done on any given day. That is why stats and experience are totally different things. I was a paramedic some many years back, and I had a friend that was an ER doc. He always got a kick out of people asking for stats. "What are my chances doc?" someone would ask. He of course would answer, but in the lunch line he would always wax and wane that there are no stats. Either you are going to die from x or not. The stats are 100% or 0%, you can't 23% die of anything.
All that being said though, I would not trade my diving experiences with my son for anything. It is something we both love to do. It teaches him responsibility and is fun at the same time. Of all the dive partners I know, at 15, he is the second best diver I know int he world. The best we can do in any situation as parents is be thoughtfull, be carefull, teach, learn, and then have as much fun as we can. For my 2 psi, its worth the risk.
Then again, if he had to drag me up in an actuall medical emergency and something were to happen to me, I'm sure I would be singing a different tune. But then, that is true of all tragedy in life. If we want to avoid it we would all be teaching our children to be hermits.
Safe diving,
Jeff
I have been reading the posts that Don quoted, especially since I have been diving with my son since he was 12 (he is now 15, all the way through Rescue with me and now we are working towards master diver).
My stats bear opposite info from yours Don. I have been on over 3,000 dives now in my 25 years of diving. I have never ever, not once, seen a diving accident, ambulance or body bag. The last 7 years of my dive history has been here in Curacao where every weekend I am not only diving, but I am doing dives in locations where 100s of other dives are being done on any given day. That is why stats and experience are totally different things. I was a paramedic some many years back, and I had a friend that was an ER doc. He always got a kick out of people asking for stats. "What are my chances doc?" someone would ask. He of course would answer, but in the lunch line he would always wax and wane that there are no stats. Either you are going to die from x or not. The stats are 100% or 0%, you can't 23% die of anything.
All that being said though, I would not trade my diving experiences with my son for anything. It is something we both love to do. It teaches him responsibility and is fun at the same time. Of all the dive partners I know, at 15, he is the second best diver I know int he world. The best we can do in any situation as parents is be thoughtfull, be carefull, teach, learn, and then have as much fun as we can. For my 2 psi, its worth the risk.
Then again, if he had to drag me up in an actuall medical emergency and something were to happen to me, I'm sure I would be singing a different tune. But then, that is true of all tragedy in life. If we want to avoid it we would all be teaching our children to be hermits.
Safe diving,
Jeff
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