I just took GUE Fundies, and I am making some major changes ! :-)

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I can't tell you how many times friends of mine that are GUE divers told me my 120 and 18lb wing was not a "balanced rig"....I told them I thought it was. They did not really have an explanation for me of the issues they really meant, so I ended up ignoring this for well over a year. What would I say now, if I see someone with something similar to my old set up, or worse? I would actually say what is wrong with it...I don't think a one word description is worth the air you expel :)

I think it is sad. You are getting old.

Not so long ago you were all about efficiency and minimal drag and the ability to move efficently in high currents. I even remember a Volkerism about being able to keep up with dolphins....

Now you goal is to be a stable, planktonic, drifter that remains static for long periods of time??? .:confused::confused::confused::D
 
To be honest, I have developed a strong preference for an oval shaped wing over the horseshoe shape.. for single tank diving, which is all I do. I disliked the air trapping on one side.
 
Can't say I'v noticed a great deal of difference between the 2. I think wing design & size, rather than U or doughnut, have more to do with ease of bubble control.

Ps. It does seem an interesting change of hart.
 
I can't tell you how many times friends of mine that are GUE divers told me my 120 and 18lb wing was not a "balanced rig"....I told them I thought it was. They did not really have an explanation for me of the issues they really meant, so I ended up ignoring this for well over a year. What would I say now, if I see someone with something similar to my old set up, or worse? I would actually say what is wrong with it...I don't think a one word description is worth the air you expel :)

Actually they probably really were parrotting the other definition of balanced rig which is more about steel doubles and wetsuits, which you rightly corrected them on since that wasn't all that much of a problem. They were probably also rightly looking at your rig and thinking it was a CF, but they didn't have the correct vocabulary to tell you what was wrong, so they threw "balanced rig" at you, and that's sorta close to the mark, but misses it.

What Bob pointed out to you with regards to the tendency of the tanks to roll around their long axis and be unstable that way is *not* what the term "balanced rig" has every been about, AFAIK. The "Balanced Rig" concept *is* about only being overweighted by the swing weight of your gas, and reducing the dynamic instability from diving with a big wing volume.

What is missing from the fundies curriculum and training is a concise explanation of why the Halcyon wing sizes and shapes are why they are designed the way they are designed. That is something in addition to the "balanced rig" concept which Bob brought in to the course.

...

I'm still a little confused on why you sold the LP120s, though, but that's probably because I don't dive warm water. I would have thought that with a 30# eclipse wing that they'd dive fine as singles. As doubles you'd definitely want Al80s there since those steel doubles plus a wetsuit would be dynamically unstable even with an aluminum plate (plus that is just a lot of swing weight of gas to start a dive when you don't have a drysuit for redundancy).

Up here we use steel tanks all the time -- because Al80s have crappy trim characteristics (head heavy tanks are bad in cold water) and you need to add >12# of lead to sink them. I dove double-80s for a few years after Bob tried to convert me, and I've broken them up for stage bottles now. Much better to just use double-hp100s or similarly sized steel tanks up here.

...

Also you mentioned that buoyancy control is about lung volume and breath control -- but it really isn't. That will breakdown with rebreathers and even on OC if you start breathing out of the top of your lungs you'll start to build up CO2. You still need to be adjusting your wing and drysuit in order to keep breathing out of the middle of your lung volume. It also reduces a divers SAC rate to not be breathing out of the top or bottom of their lungs.
 
Here are a couple of short clips of my daughter and I in the pool. I am diving doubles with a 4lb BP (snicker) and she is using a single (snicker snicker). No weightbelts or BC's. Is this acceptable gear for fundies and is she too old for the course?

[video]https://dl.dropbox.com/preview/q3oo5fxwvoco0fy/MVI_8424.AVI[/video]
[video]https://dl.dropbox.com/preview/q3oo5fxwvoco0fy/MVI_8430.AVI[/video]
 
Actually they probably really were parrotting the other definition of balanced rig which is more about steel doubles and wetsuits, which you rightly corrected them on since that wasn't all that much of a problem. They were probably also rightly looking at your rig and thinking it was a CF, but they didn't have the correct vocabulary to tell you what was wrong, so they threw "balanced rig" at you, and that's sorta close to the mark, but misses it.

What Bob pointed out to you with regards to the tendency of the tanks to roll around their long axis and be unstable that way is *not* what the term "balanced rig" has every been about, AFAIK. The "Balanced Rig" concept *is* about only being overweighted by the swing weight of your gas, and reducing the dynamic instability from diving with a big wing volume.

What is missing from the fundies curriculum and training is a concise explanation of why the Halcyon wing sizes and shapes are why they are designed the way they are designed. That is something in addition to the "balanced rig" concept which Bob brought in to the course.

...

I'm still a little confused on why you sold the LP120s, though, but that's probably because I don't dive warm water. I would have thought that with a 30# eclipse wing that they'd dive fine as singles. As doubles you'd definitely want Al80s there since those steel doubles plus a wetsuit would be dynamically unstable even with an aluminum plate (plus that is just a lot of swing weight of gas to start a dive when you don't have a drysuit for redundancy).

The main reason for not using single al 80's here, ( what all the boats have on board for rental) is that they do not have sufficient volume for the 85 to 130 dives I like to do the most in South Florida--for you to follow the common sense GUE position on Minimum Gas for the dive ( meaning if your buddy has a reg failure/etc at the end of the planned dive, do you have enough gas to bring both of you up at a normal ascent rate after dealing with the emergency). In the 80s or 90s this more of a non-issue due to most divers using air, this limiting bottom time to match the volume of the tank better. Today with Nitrox durations at 80 to 100 feet, the smarter choice is going to be a much larger tank...or double 80's. When I saw how much more stable the double 80's were from the 120's, partly due to the closeness to your back, partly the pontoon effect of the way the wing cradles them so much further to each side....it became clear that for the best videographic advantages I could get in the challenging locations I want to shoot videos---the dual 80 choice was better for me. I don't want to shoot what 1000 other video guys are shooting...I want the shots that most recreational divers would not even try to get. So penetrating deep into holds of a shipwreck where I can get a cool back drop for dozens of 400 pound Goliath Groupers, becomes a primary mission, and being rock steady without effort in mid water collum inside the hold, offers more mental energy for being creative with the camera. Easy is good :)

The 120's can do this with the 30 pound wing, but not as well.
The big advantages of speed and low drag for the 120 so far have usually been in shallower water, as in bottlenose dolphin encounters on 60 foot reefs.....for this I "could" have used an 80. For sailfish shots I want to get this winter, I can use a single 80--it will be shallow with the fast--and for this I can even use the 18 pound wing, as it would only be fast--these sailfish don't really stop to pose :)
...

Also you mentioned that buoyancy control is about lung volume and breath control -- but it really isn't. That will breakdown with rebreathers and even on OC if you start breathing out of the top of your lungs you'll start to build up CO2. You still need to be adjusting your wing and drysuit in order to keep breathing out of the middle of your lung volume. It also reduces a divers SAC rate to not be breathing out of the top or bottom of their lungs.
Lamont, I am not talking about rebreathers...and I actually think they are a big mistake for most divers.
What I was talking about was how typical OW classes never teach bouyancy beyond the rough control of BC only. So for precision in the hold of a shipwreck or in a cave, there are going to be times when lung volume is going to be used for optimizing where you are in the water collumn, particularly when doing something with a reel or camera, etc. I am expecting you are talking about something else....

The rebreather issue to me is mission specific....I don't want to be diving one, unless it is the only way to achieve a very extreme dive. For 100% of the extreme dives I can imagine off south Florida, open circuit is safer and better for my "missions"...If I was doing lots of 400 foot deep stuff on oculina banks, racking up massive bottom time and deco, carrying sufficient gas supply would be so problematic, that a rebreather would be necessary.....As of now, I don't see a good reason to be shooting that stuff, and OC will be more practical for what I and most S Florida divers want to dive on.
 
I think one of the things Lamont may have been talking about is what we learn pretty fast in cave diving, which is that overusing your breath for buoyancy control (beyond momentary adjustments) is a good way to blow through gas . . . Cave divers learn to correct buoyancy with wing or suit so that breathing can remain controlled and rhythmic, because that allows the longest dive.
 
I think it is sad. You are getting old.

Not so long ago you were all about efficiency and minimal drag and the ability to move efficently in high currents. I even remember a Volkerism about being able to keep up with dolphins....

Now you goal is to be a stable, planktonic, drifter that remains static for long periods of time??? .:confused::confused::confused::D


One of these days you will decide to grace us with your presence on a dive....and you will see I am not giving up on swimming at "cruising pace" or "spearfishing pace"....I do plan on being in many penetration environments, in which I will need the ability to stop and be without movement....
Even in doubles and with jets on, I sincerely doubt anyone, even you, will complain about my "pace" :)


p.s.
We are planning on going out on Narcosis this afternoon, if you would like to join us !
 
I think one of the things Lamont may have been talking about is what we learn pretty fast in cave diving, which is that overusing your breath for buoyancy control (beyond momentary adjustments) is a good way to blow through gas . . . Cave divers learn to correct buoyancy with wing or suit so that breathing can remain controlled and rhythmic, because that allows the longest dive.

And this gets to how hard it is to convey ideas like this on a discussion thread. My expectation, is that most cave divers with good bouyancy and trim, make their wing inflation adjustments to the lung volume they plan of averaging throughout the dive, and to the breathing rate...getting an average swing up and down, and the wing needs to have inflation adjusted to this average....I do NOT think OW divers think about this, or even are aware of such a thing.

I absolutely agree that doing too much lung boyancy wastes gas....while normally I would never be guilty of this in the ocean, during Fundies open water dives with drills constant throughout, I WAS guilty of this overuse of lungs for control, and my sac rate became very average, instead of very low as usual.
I'll blame this on performance anxiety having Bob watching :)
 
dan how about when shootin vid, I review yesterdays dive a little bit ago and a sealion buzzed around and I noticed I just kept sucking, I breathe in and a little more and a little more. The vid told me that and not sure if it was buoyancy or just not letting bubbles out as sealions like to bite bubbles. I mean running vid especially when in the 5th and 6th atm's, I use breathing for buoyancy to keep vid quality and add air fewer times for this reason.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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