I just took GUE Fundies, and I am making some major changes ! :-)

[Jax]

For you guys diving pretty warm water, the double Al80s probably make sense . . . but I really don't understand the disdain for a reasonable-sized single tank.

Me, neither!

Come out and visit, Dan! We can do a challenge -- me in one of my single tank setups, and you in doubles, and we'll see who can sit still longest (while we slowly freeze to death!).

:huh: Are you kidding me?!?!?!?! You'd rather do that in the PNW, instead of you going to Florida into those lovely, clear, warm waters?

 

[Peter Guy]

Dan, Thanks for the writeup, especially about the expanded definition of "Balanced Rig." BTW, you hit one of the things I really like about my DSS singles setup -- no STA but instead, the cambands through the wing/plate keeping the tank on the plate along with the DSS weight plates which are also bolted to the edges of the plate. This system creates a very stable (balanced if you will) singles platform, great for an HP130 and cold water diving.

 

[Splitlip]

My first bpw rig was a hammerhead aluminum plate with a hammerhead sta and oxycheq 30# razor. The hh sta is huge and bulky, v shaped for a 7 1/4 inch tank. First time I used it was with a pumped up lp 98. The diameter the 98's is 8 inches so the sta held it out there.
First time I used the rig it definitely wanted to roll me. I moved me weights to the front and that helped a little. Next thing I did was to bend the sta so the tank fit a bit closer to my back. A little better. Finally I picked up an oxycheq lite weight sta which only holds the tanks off by the thickness of the carriage bolts head plus about 1/16 inch. That did the trick.
I now dive up steel 100's and don't have any issues with oxy 18 # mv.

Dan, I don't think that halcyon sta did you any favors.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Another reason I like my HOG wings for singles again no STA and like Lynne I have no problems with stability with my single LP95's. But then I do use the 32lb wing. Have not tried them with the 23 and AL plate yet.

 

[Mayor]

I recommend weight to ditch for new divers but you still can start setting up a balanced rig. As time goes on they find weight placement is key to what many of us shoot for a perfect rig. Yes the STA does move the tank away from you but not enough to cause problems for me. I like the idea that the STA weight can be added if diving different tanks. Of course I have always used the donut shapped wing for all my tanks. Now doubles have always been more stable in the water and ride better. Bob got me hooked on alum 80 doubles and I have never looked back. Steel 100's and 130's never worked for me. Maybe the steel 120's but at what cost to my back.

 

[sea_ledford]

After I proved to myself, that I was wrong and he was right, it meant I have 3... , that's right, THREE lp 120's that were now bogus//the tanks Bill Mee, Sandra and I would use for the dives where 100 foot depth was possible.

Fortunately, a few days after I became depressed with this, , I good friend of mine needed a bunch of lp 120's for double set ups to use at Wakkulla..in big cave penetrations....he had a bunch of double 80's he did not know what to do with......a trade resulted

So you decided to ditch your 3 120s for Al80 doubles instead of getting a 30-40 lb doughnut wing that doesn't need a STA? Do you think that would have fixed it? That is not meant as snarky, I've always HATED HP100's because they flip me over in my 30lb Oxycheq wing. It also sounds as if you are suggesting that wing taco is a good thing in a single tank set up. Isn't that heresy?

And if you are looking at drag difference, what has more drag: a 120 with a tacoed wing to keep it stable or a set of AL80 doubles?

Chris

 

[Blue Sparkle]

One of the WORST descriptive terms used is a “Balanced Rig”…It is fine when used in discussionswith other GUE divers that have experienced what this means—but for everyone else, it sounds like rhetoric, and falls far short of explaining the real issues.

I'm not sure what to think about your assertion that "balanced rig" is "one of the WORST descriptive terms." I would agree that the concept needs some explanation to be understood the first time one hears it, but then I would say that also goes for a large percentage of the terms in Scuba diving*.

And that's not to say that one should continue on doing something badly just because there are other examples; but I see it more as stemming from the fact that numerous concepts in Scuba diving do not necessarily lend themselves to being condensed into one-word definitions that are instantly, completely understandable by just seeing that one word or term the first time.

In other words, for this concept as well as many others, wouldn't *any* term that was used to talk about it have to be explained, to some extent, to someone unfamiliar with it? (Obviously that doesn't mean we should just call it "Polka Dot," or something; but I don't see "balanced rig" as being so far off as to be misleading.)

On the other hand, if there were no "shorthand" term, it could make the concepts hard to talk about or refer to later.

Edited to add: I realized I forgot to ask what term you would use instead of "balanced rig" for the same concept. Maybe there is a better one.

Blue Sparkle

*Slight tangent, but related: When I first got into Scuba diving I quickly decided that it would handily win an award for the sport with the most acronyms ever

 

[danvolker]

I'm not sure what to think about your assertion that "balanced rig" is "one of the WORST descriptive terms." I would agree that the concept needs some explanation to be understood the first time one hears it, but then I would say that also goes for a large percentage of the terms in Scuba diving*.

And that's not to say that one should continue on doing something badly just because there are other examples; but I see it more as stemming from the fact that numerous concepts in Scuba diving do not necessarily lend themselves to being condensed into one-word definitions that are instantly, completely understandable by just seeing that one word or term the first time.

In other words, for this concept as well as many others, wouldn't *any* term that was used to talk about it have to be explained, to some extent, to someone unfamiliar with it? (Obviously that doesn't mean we should just call it "Polka Dot," or something; but I don't see "balanced rig" as being so far off as to be misleading.)

On the other hand, if there were no "shorthand" term, it could make the concepts hard to talk about or refer to later.

Edited to add: I realized I forgot to ask what term you would use instead of "balanced rig" for the same concept. Maybe there is a better one.

Blue Sparkle

*Slight tangent, but related: When I first got into Scuba diving I quickly decided that it would handily win an award for the sport with the most acronyms ever

I can't tell you how many times friends of mine that are GUE divers told me my 120 and 18lb wing was not a "balanced rig"....I told them I thought it was. They did not really have an explanation for me of the issues they really meant, so I ended up ignoring this for well over a year. What would I say now, if I see someone with something similar to my old set up, or worse? I would actually say what is wrong with it...I don't think a one word description is worth the air you expel

 

[RonFrank]

I was very happy diving my Stiletto and steel 100's in FL. I have no idea if I could hover as I was busy shooting Rockfish at 100'!

I think there is maybe an 2 inches difference between my STA and STAless on my cold water Hammerhead setup. One can buy a low profile STA if that helps you sleep at night. In CA this setup worked very well. Stable with no roll.

I think we over estimate our precision UW. I can hover all day shooting photo's. If I were to dive my BP in FL I would be 12# heavy. I would need an ABS wing and travel STA. I like my Back inflate Zeagle. So is this a means to an end, or are you going to diving doubles for the sake of diving doubles? I know some tech divers who never dive tech. I also have friends who do dive tech. Some are DIR, some are not. They are more alike than different. Just remember Kool-aide Stains!

 

[Blue Sparkle]

I don't think a one word description is worth the air you expel

Okay, I guess I differ on that, but there is surely room for two opinions

I find it handy to be able to say "buoyancy" or "trim" or any of dozens of other words or short phrases that signify various diving concepts (some which are not all that simple). That doesn't mean I wouldn't explain one of them to someone for whom they were new or not understood though (or, conversely, look up or have someone explain any to me that I didn't know).