Divemaster = Solo Diver?

[cool79]

Had got a reply from them. Looks like I would at least need to have a solo diver cert to get covered during my leisure dives.

If your primary fails, you still have your oct. but if your 1st stage fails, then it will be game over. Looks like either I go for side mount or I get a pony tank plus solo diver cert.

Think side mount would be better, but I think I will get side mount after 1-2 years time.

 

[Steve_C]

Related-- What does a DM do if DMing a charter with dives that exceed 100' and he/she is not Deep certified? I know PADI has changed the DM course to require some deep diving, but I don't think Deep cert. is required to get your DM.

I think the PADI DM required a Deep Cert. Which was why I went and got it long after I had done a bunch of deeper dives. There may well be an instructor option of giving some credit for experience but I did not use that.

As you know the DM is a generic pro credential. In the manual it states that a DM should not be leading a dive unless it is one that he/she has sufficient experience in (my words).

Personally I don't think that a deep cert by itself is sufficient to be assisting on a deep course or leading a deep dive. It is only a couple dives and they could be a lot shallower than 100 ft.

 

[Wookie]

The part that everyone forgets is "Unless by training or experience". If a DM doesn't have the deep cert, but has been to 130 many times, first with their mentor then with their buddies, than they have the training or experience to lead dives past 60 feet.

We all didn't learn what we know at the PADI college.

 

[ams511]

Had got a reply from them. Looks like I would at least need to have a solo diver cert to get covered during my leisure dives.

If your primary fails, you still have your oct. but if your 1st stage fails, then it will be game over. Looks like either I go for side mount or I get a pony tank plus solo diver cert.

Think side mount would be better, but I think I will get side mount after 1-2 years time.

Even if you go sidemount you will still need the solo cert if the dive shops/sites/boats you frequent require it. How deep are your dives? If you are doing shallow water work then it should not be a problem to surface after a regulator failure. Remember most regulators fail in the open position so you can still take a few breaths before the tank empties.

 

[Bob DBF]

Personally I'd put more faith in someone with 100 dives >30m who didn't have a cert than someone who had the papers but only made the 6 or so dives required to get it.

R..

I wish it was 6 dives, PADI gave me my card after 4. It was OK for me since I probably had more deep dives than the instructor and DM combined when I walked into training, but after I'd rather solo than dive deep with anyone in the class.

By the way, I don't consider 61' to be a deep dive, I'll give the nod around a hundred or so.



Bob
--------------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[TMHeimer]

The part that everyone forgets is "Unless by training or experience". If a DM doesn't have the deep cert, but has been to 130 many times, first with their mentor then with their buddies, than they have the training or experience to lead dives past 60 feet.

We all didn't learn what we know at the PADI college.

I agree. But I have always questioned what "training OR experience means". If it's not training, how much experience qualifies one to lead deep dives? Same question for new OW divers--60' --unless you get experience (with mentor? instructor but no class?, with buddy gradually extending your depth?). How much experience for PADI to say "Well, you have enough experience to go to 100'".

Steve_C, I don't believe PADI requires the full Deep Cert. in the new DM course. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Wookie]

I agree. But I have always questioned what "training OR experience means". If it's not training, how much experience qualifies one to lead deep dives? Same question for new OW divers--60' --unless you get experience (with mentor? instructor but no class?, with buddy gradually extending your depth?). How much experience for PADI to say "Well, you have enough experience to go to 100'".

Steve_C, I don't believe PADI requires the full Deep Cert. in the new DM course. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't understand what makes leading deep dives different than leading 20 foot lo vis quarry dives, if you're an experienced deep diver.

It seems we're making 2 kinds of divers in the industry today. The first is reckless, thinks they know everything as soon as they receive their OW card, and want to pursue full cave or trimix with 20 open water dives. The second believes the pablum spouted by the training agencies, thinks that OW divers are somehow limited to 60 feet, and couldn't lead themselves on a dive if their life depended on it, which it sometimes does. North Americans and some Europeans are conditioned not to believe in themselves. We've removed common sense from scuba instruction, and we all think that if we follow some procedure, including guided dives and firm itineraries, we will have a good time. We seem to have lost our sense of diving adventure, perhaps quelled by the insurance companies, perhaps by too many litigators.

I would expect someone who has 100 real world dives (I'm not talking about quarry divemasters here) to have been to 100 feet or deeper a number of times. I might expect them to have had an "Oh crap" moment or 2. If they are PADI, I would have expected them to have made 9 dives under instruction, performed a few rescues, learned some physics and physiology and been introduced into a philosophy of instruction. That's the way we teach divemasters who lead deep dives in the real diving world. Some guy from Ohio (nothing against Ohio) who has 100 quarry dives in Gilboa to 60 feet in limited vis is not qualified to lead real world deep dives.

But he has the same DM card I do.

 

[flots am]

I don't understand what makes leading deep dives different than leading 20 foot lo vis quarry dives, if you're an experienced deep diver.

I'm not sure I understand the entire concept of leading a deep dive.

If someone can't do a dive on their own, why would anybody want to take them there?

flots.

 

[Bob DBF]

I'm not sure I understand the entire concept of leading a deep dive.

If someone can't do a dive on their own, why would anybody want to take them there?

flots.

When they were "trained" the instructor said they couldn't go there without another class or two.

[RANT]
As I do on occasion, I reread the WRSTC guidelines for OW Diver. Open Water Diver

Open water certification qualifies a certified diver to procure air, equipment, and other services and engage in recreational open water diving without supervision. It is the intent of this standard that certified open water divers shall have received training in the fundamentals of recreational diving from an instructor (see definition). A certified open water diver is qualified to apply the knowledge and skills outlined in this standard to plan, conduct, and log open-water, no-required decompression dives when properly equipped, and accompanied by another certified diver.

Notice no depth limit and requirement for other classes. The fundamentals, as I was trained, included using common sense and experience to avoid accidents. Of course that was back when SCUBA was dangerous and could get you killed if you didn't keep your wits about you.

Supervised diver certification qualifies the bearer to dive under the direct supervision of a diving professional (instructor or certified assistant—see definitions) while applying the knowledge and skills they learn in this course, within the limits of their training and experience. This pre-entry level certification addresses consumers that have personal time constraints and/or who prefer to dive supervised. It is the intent of this standard that supervised divers will receive training in the fundamentals of recreational diving from an instructor (see definition). The certified supervised diver can plan, conduct and log open water no required decompression dives when properly equipped and directly supervised by an instructor or certified assistant.

These are my red highlights and point out that instructors using that phrase seem to be training Supervised Divers. OW divers should be trained to make dive planning decisions on their own with the ability to plan a safe dive beyond the limits of formal training and their experience.

I was trained to dive twice, the first was with a book and one set of dive gear, my dad (4 dives more than me) instructing; all but buddy breathing on the double hose was solo. The second was a NAUI/PADI class after 17 years of diving, to pick up a c-card which was becoming more necessary by the year. In both, the most valuable part of the training focused on how to make good decisions when planning and executing dives, this took a lot of time with the instructor (and staff). With e-learning, shortened instruction time, and now that the sea has become a safe place, I have seen arbitrary rules and platitudes taught a lot more than critical thinking.

My but I do go on. [\RANT]



Bob
-----------------------------------------

That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

The most important thing to plan when solo diving is to make sure that you are not diving with an idiot. Dsix36

 

[letterboy]

Hey, quarries are dangerous...

In the same way a DM from Ohio isn't fit to lead a dive in the keys, a keys DM is not fit to lead a dive in Ohio. Two completely different dives.

I think the first thing ANY dive pro needs to understand is what they can accomplish safely. Not enough pros do this. I would have never thought of leading a group of divers on a dive when I first moved down here. Now, I could lead a dive on a familiar site with familiar buddies. But I would not want to with complete strangers. If you had asked me right after I got my dive con card if I knew what I needed to to lead divers I would have enthusiastically said hell yeah, now, not so enthusiastically. This comes from maturing and becoming more experienced.