Best Deals on Singles BP/W

[stuartv]

Also..

@stuartv it wasn't until recently that you had options on where to put wings on the backplate.

This sounds like progress! Adjustability up/down does not sound like a bad thing. If nobody had a use for it, why did manufacturers start offering it?

Most of the rest will have 2, maybe 3 sets of grommet holes for you to align the wing, but it doesn't make that much of a difference.

I'm only talking about making adjustments for small improvements. But, maybe I just haven't developed enough skill yet. Right now, to my level, it seems like those adjustments, for those small improvements, are necessary when you are trying to go from "nearly still" to "perfectly still" (and flat in the water). Unless you just happen to get really lucky.

I was trying to get perfectly still in my SM rig. After some adjustments and experimenting, I added 2# to the top spine pocket. Once I did that, I was able to literally float perfectly still for about 10 minutes. I did not need the weight for my buoyancy, but it did the trick for my trim. I was only tilting up and down slightly in rhythm with my breathing. The current in the deep end of the pool washed me around in a couple of big circles as I just floated. Another instructor's wife (who was in the water at the time) told me afterwards that she had seen me and started to get her husband to come rescue me because I was so still she thought I was unconscious.

I have been working on achieving that in my Hydros rig, too. I have not gotten there yet, but I can feel that I'm close. Last time, I needed heavier fins and I had forgotten to bring them. I also tried to achieve stillness with my Freedom plate, but, as I described, I am not very close, yet.

The point being, that in single tank, I feel like I might need to be able to adjust wing position up or down, to get that final 2%. In particular, with the Freedom plate. Or get a wing with a different shape that lifts more at the bottom. Or wear a thicker wetsuit and add corresponding weight on the top tank strap.

But, that could just be my lack of skill and experience. So, I am definitely open to suggestions!

 

[rsingler]

Scubapro Seawing Nova's. Their buoyancy is just the extra I need, instead of my usual old Jet Fins.
Same issue with my biggest tank and the FP. Sometimes you need to make small compromises. But +1 on your search for perfect trim!
If you want to use the top pair of holes in the VDH wing and move it down, I wouldn't hesitate to extend the slot north with a little judicious cutting, if there's room. Since the wing's sandwiched between the bars and the plate, it's not carrying load. But as I recollect with my 18# VDH wing, the slots align with the top pair of holes already, don't they? In other words, isn't the 18# wing already as far down as the paired holes will permit? Or maybe I have it backward. I'll go check tonight. I think Eric extended the slots on the FP model #4 to allow that sort of adjustment. Ship it back to him and I bet he'll alter it for you.

 

[dmaziuk]

Freedom Contour: a regular plate you can just shift up or down.

(Waiting in line for mine)

 

[ams511]

it’s up to the plate designer to make their plates fit whatever wings they deem suitable for their plates,

I will disagree with you. It depends on the marketing strategy of the maker. You sell a plate and nothing else. It makes sense that you would make a plate that fits the wings of your potential client. VDH was the same way when they first started selling their plate. They did not have their own wing so they made the slots longer so that it would fit a wide variety of wings. This makes perfect sense for them also.

If a wing manufacturer wants to market a wing to people that already have a backplate then they will make the slots of the wing longer so that it will fit a wide variety of plates. Some examples of this are Dive Rite. Oxycheq, HOG, Deep6, OMS and some others.

Some manufacturers want to sell the whole packages. For some manufacturers,this makes sense, for example DSS, that sells a product where the wing and plate are intended to work together. For example, the ability to remove the wing from the plate without having to unthread the cam bands. VDH may be attempting to do the same thing with their plate and wing combination, providing a unique solution to double-hose divers. However, I don't think this is the case because they do now sell a conventional plate. I remember the thread Stuart mentioned, and I also thought Bryan's response was a bit odd and uncharacteristic. I have purchased from VDH in the past and always had a good experience. They get my strongest recommendation.

Many people want to sell an upscale product because the margins are higher. They point to Apple as a successful example, what they forget is the company almost went bankrupt several times. So it is also a risky strategy. I remember someone once remarking that Scuba is a strange market as he never seen so many cheap people in such an expensive hobby. Do you remember that person?

 

[tbone1004]

@stuartv you prioritize what is "good enough" vs. what is "perfect" and you learn to position your legs and arms to take up most of the trim issues. Diving is dynamic, wings aren't perfectly cylindrical so what works when the tank is full, may not work when it is empty based on shape of the wing. The wetsuit compression also changes trim as you descent. The center of buoyancy of the tank shifts when it is full vs. empty *have you seen the stage bottle resting on the pool at different pressures video?* all of that nets out to where the wing shape and plate position matters a whole lot more than whether the wing is an inch or two up.
Note that is completely different than putting a 2lb weight that has a pretty big moment attached to it.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I'm glad you chimed in. You might be the PERFECT person to ask this.

I mean this in all sincerity, too. I'm not trying to argue. I'm trying to understand. I have never designed a BP or wing, so I do realize you (all) know a lot more about it than I do.

Your Freedom plate is a perfect example to illustrate what I don't understand about this issue.

My Freedom plate has 2" wide slots for tank straps, right? So, if my wing also has 2" wide slots, then that means the wing will only fit in exactly one spot on the plate. The plate is made where it only "fits" on my back in one spot.

How do you know that your design, with the wing and plate only fitting properly in one spot on the diver's back, is going to work the best possible for any given diver?

I mean, it seems to me that the optimal position of the wing, for any given diver, would depend on all the other variables - the diver's body, what exposure protection they are wearing, what weight they need, what type and size of tank they are using, etc..

Even with the same diver and exposure protection, the diver might need their lift slightly higher for one tank they use and slightly lower for a different tank. If the diver is like me and rarely needs any lead added, then not being able to move the wing (or plate) up or down seems like it could easily result in some configurations where the diver would have to add unneeded leaded to their rig somewhere just to get proper trim.

I have always thought that this is why every wing I own has at least 2 sets of grommets, so that I can attach the wing to a BP in at least 2 different positions, to optimize trim.

The design where the wing is, essentially, locked into one position seems like it would lack this ability - an ability that would be desirable, to some people, with some configurations.

It seems like all that is needed, in order to "remedy" this is to make the slots on the wing longer, so the wing can be moved up or down. So, why would any manufacturer not do this?

The Freedom Plate used to have much longer slots top and bottom specifically for this purpose. All it seemed to do was cause a lot of confusion and became a setup nightmare for a lot of people. This was also before the removable rail and specifically the 11" center hole rail (9.5" on the small size) where the wing is designed to go under the rail, if you choose to run it this way.
Most people don't understand or care too much about that last 2% of perfect trim. If they can get within 10% they thrilled. Most can work with this and achieve trim that is good enough for the diving they do. Just look at what they were using before! no inherent balast, plastic everywhere, big bulky pockets, wrap around inflation with cumberbun, etc.

For V4, I had to make the plate more user friendly for ease of setup and it's actually more versatile than any other model thus far, I'll explain in a minute...
I ended up deciding for the bulk of the people what should go where (in regards to the rail) based on my personal experiences and from input from others. This is what designers do.
The rail has to go in one spot, you don't have a choice with that because of the curvature of the plate the center bar will not hit in the right spot if you monkey with the rail higher or lower. Yes, I made the decision on that one. Where the rail bracket goes the wing goes - based on where the grommet holes are on the wing and how many of them there are.

Pros: Ease of setup and rig is secured with attached wing, makes putting on and changing tanks a breeze even on a pitching boat.

Cons: Lack of adjustability, and Stuart doesn't like it (Kidding )

There are several ways an FP can be set up:

1) The wing can go under the rail and cam bands can go through the plate slots as lined up. This is the standard default setup. Most rigid setup with no adjustment because the bolts go through wing grommet and plate hole, and top cam slots line up in their happy spot.

2) The wing can go over the rail if slots in the wing can be made to line up with the slots in the plate, but the bolt holes do not. This was how the plate used to be when the rail was welded on. This method might allow for up down adjustment of the wing depending on which wing it is.

3) Wings with no slots (like Halcyon) can be used by bolting the wing on under the rail bracket then running the cam bands under the rail bars only, not through the plate. You can actually do this with any wing. However, the wing will still be fixed in one location.

4) Running the wing on top of the rail bars and running the cam bands right under the rail bars, skipping running the cam bands through the plate completely. This will allow for the infinite adjustment you're seeking.

5) Get out your hot butter knife and hot screwdriver and you can DIY melt/ extend slots, put as many new bracket holes in your wing as you wish.
You should see the center panel of my Oxycheq wing (and the wear and tear)! That things been to hell and back and still kickin'

6) Skip the wing completely and just use the plate old skool no BC, then you don't have to worry about the wing at all because there isn't one.

Or just go diving like everyone else and have fun.
You need to come out to the west coast and dive where I dive. Your obsession with perfect trim would be out the window in about two seconds.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

@dmaziuk I have dived a decent amount with a single steel 120, in a 3mm wetsuit, with a SS BP. That means 9# of gas plus however much I'm overweighted by having a SS BP. So, at least, say, 10# of lift being used at the start of a dive. That's over half of an 18# wing....

In my experimenting with my Freedom Contour plate, I found that, in a 3mm wetsuit and Deep6 fins, if I get perfectly still, my feet sink. That is with a steel 100 that is set so high it's annoying because I keep bumping my head on the first stage. And with my head up, back arched, knees at more than 90, putting my feet closer to my tank than I normally would, and hands together out in front of me. I think it is because the shape of the Freedom plate concentrates more weight towards my feet, compared to a conventional shape for a BP. I don't want to add weight, so the only option I would have is shifting the wing down some on the BP. Or constant, slight sculling....

@tbone1004, you say that I have more control over my trim than my wing does. If I want to be PERFECTLY still and stay in trim, what should I try in the above Freedom plate scenario (presuming I keep the same tank and exposure protection)?

Try using a drysuit. Many people use them in addition to all the other variables to achieve perfect trim. A little gas in the feet and the bubble on the back help hold that perfect skydiver position you are seeking. TSandM used to dive dry everywhere even in the tropics. RJP also mentioned he packed a drysuit for his tropical dive trips to warm water.

 

[ams511]

Diving is dynamic, wings aren't perfectly cylindrical so what works when the tank is full, may not work when it is empty based on shape of the wing.

I wonder if the wing could be the problem. I haven't seen a HOG 23 in person but it appears to be short and wide. Stuart I thought was tall. Do you think he would be better off with longer narrower wing? Wing shape is something that doesn't get talked about much but something I often wondered about. For example take the Halcyon wing the upper arc is larger than the bottom. Some imitators also do this. Others make the lower arc wider, older Dive Rites, and UTD. Finally others are more or less symmetrical for example the Deep6 and some others.

 

[Centrals]

RJP also mentioned he packed a drysuit for his tropical dive trips to warm water.

And it was tiny!

 

[tbone1004]

I wonder if the wing could be the problem. I haven't seen a HOG 23 in person but it appears to be short and wide. Stuart I thought was tall. Do you think he would be better off with longer narrower wing? Wing shape is something that doesn't get talked about much but something I often wondered about. For example take the Halcyon wing the upper arc is larger than the bottom. Some imitators also do this. Others make the lower arc wider, older Dive Rites, and UTD. Finally others are more or less symmetrical for example the Deep6 and some others.

I like long skinny wings. The problem with putting larger crossover sizes between the wings these days is that few are using STA's. Bottom crossovers don't matter for most people because they are always diving somewhat head up. Even if they are diving in trim or go head down to dump gas, there shouldn't be much space between the tank and your butt so that part of the wing can't inflate properly.
The Eclipse has to be used with a STA which stands the tank up and that upper "pillow" can inflate because of that space and the space created by the crown.

To my the wing should be as long as practical *i.e. if you are diving AL50's or 63's they obviously have to be shorter, and should be relatively skinny. Keeps roll a lot easier to control, no wrap, and helps with trim by distributing the lift along the tank. DSS LCD series, Oxycheq MachV etc.