ISO Clearer Definitions on "Training" and "Certification"

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Well, Night is one of the standard AOW dives up here. One night dive, with a decent briefing on proper light procedures, is about what a decently intelligent student needs to know to start night diving.

When I took my AOW Night, Deep and Nav were compulsory with that op. In addition, I got Boat and PPB. Of those, I'd say that Night was the most useful. The other stuff (except being certified to go deeper than 18m) I'd already learned pretty well by just diving. But then I had a few dives under my belt between my OW and my AOW. I have the impression that not everyone has that, and if you take your AOW pretty shortly after your OW a few more of those adventure dives may be useful.

But again, you're not really so much learning skills. Every OW class I've been involved with introduces NAV as the last dive to complete the course. Maybe they're not extensive work done on it as it only requires a swim out and back for a certain number of fin cycles to complete the skill. But still in the AOW course you've already "learned" the skill; you're just improving on it. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, though.

@tursiops Yes you do have a point. Diving an AIR profile and breathing EAN is definitely going to be a better option than using AIR on an AIR profile or EAN on an EAN profile. But as has been mentioned, when diving EAN (even on an EAN profile) on a normal rec dive, gas volume is usually going to limit the dive before NDLs are ever an issue, so less nitrogen is typically going to be onloaded either way. At least that's been my experience so far. Again, maybe I'm wrong and I'm certainly open to criticism, especially from those that have much more diving under their belts than I do. So your point of view of definitely appreciated my friend.
 
Out of curiosity, do you charge by the day? If so, what is your rate and what constitutes a day? I've never come across anyone who charges by the day.
I charge $250 per day for recreational courses and $300 for Technical courses. I do give a guideline of course days (4-5 days for open water etc.) but its so much easier if the students know I wont pass them just because I've quoted them a price for a specific duration. A day is approx. 8-10 hours.
 
One thing to remember if you get into tech courses:

Training is purchased
Certification is earned
 
I manage a resort in northern Minnesota, so it's been a week or so since I've been able to log in and keep up with everything happening here at Scubaboard. To that end, I see that there are four pages of responses to this small request for clarification. Thanks to everyone who responded. I'll try to respond a little bit at a time so as not to overwhelm anyone.


There are a few instructors that put more emphasis on training vs certification. I mean a vast majority of instructors (from most agencies) will
take you on the dives, go through the skills and sign your certification card.........that is how its been done for ages......and lets you "practice until you get it" on your own after the course. Sound like your open water course?

This is precisely my complaint.

It seems to me that you have a desire to learn and feel confident in new skills that expose you to more elements of diving and just having a card doesn't matter...... you want to be a diver.....

Yes. This is exactly what I'm looking for.

She had an excellent instructor who charged by the day ... I would gladly pay this instructor for a day or two of his time with no official certification to be gained, as I feel that one day with him is worth several times that on my own in terms of skill development.

Where does one go about finding instructors like these? What is the process?

I hope the expectation is not that you'll get a course where once you get the certification, you've "mastered" the skills of the speciality, as it's really practice, practice, practice. There's always room for improvement and you'll eventually encounter situation you've not encountered in a course.

Yes. Absolutely. I'm not looking to "master" some skill by the end of a training course, but I would like to have been trained in said skill above reading about it in a book and demonstrating that I can do it one time.

Here's an example: During my open water check-out dives, while demonstrating my ability to retrieve a lost regulator, my second stage began to free flow before it even left my hand. My arm was outstretched, away from my body, preparing to let it go when gas began flooding from it. Very calmly, I pulled the regulator back (having never let go of it) and stuck my finger in the mouthpiece to build up enough pressure to end the free flow. By the time I had completed the maneuver, however, I was feeling CO2 overload and needed a breath. I stuck the reg back in my mouth to take a breath with the intention of attempting the reg retrieval a second time. Instead, my instructor gave me the "okay" sign and moved to the next student. I didn't even get to officially complete the skill and was checked off.

In all fairness, the water temperature was 45° on the platform we were at, but there were only five students. Honestly, what would have been best for "testing" the reg retrieval skill (even if it happened in the pool sessions) would have been if the instructor randomly slapped the reg out of my mouth. How often are you going to pull your reg from your mouth and let go of it in a real world setting? It's likely to be kicked or slapped or otherwise dislodged in a moment of surprise. Using this to test the skill seems a better choice.

So, while I don't want to be a "master" of a skill, I'd still like to walk away from a training session I've paid for feeling (at the very least) confident and competent. I did not master the skills of essay writing from a single semester of English Composition in college, but it certainly helped me to feel more confident and competent.
 
The first thing you're missing is that in greater metropolitan Park Rapids you do not have much luxury of choice regarding instructors or locations for AOW unless you're willing to spend more on travel than you do on the training. I took AOW with MSD in Brainerd, and they're OK. They teach the curriculum, they care about diving, they run a safe class. It's all shore diving and it's inexpensive and close. That's your best bet.

For what it's worth, MSD is where I took my OW. I love those guys over there. We are slowly attempting to integrate into the dive community in Brainerd but, as you said, they're okay. They do it safe. They care about diving. They just won't let me give them money on a bunch of classes. :p:D

In general the Caribbean is a much less demanding environment -- you'll learn more about underwater problem solving putting your fins on in 60 degree water six times than in a skills drill in the ocean.

Yes. I totally get this. It's part of why we are continuing with Fun Dives with MSD and why I want to continue my training with them. I just don't get the sense that I'm going to be able to find that great instructor others are talking about.

The second thing you're missing is that AOW by itself isn't enough dives to give you really solid skills. The skill progression is different for different people, but it takes 25 or 50 or 100 dives depending on the person before everything is second nature and the psychomotor associations ("muscle memory") are all in place.

This makes sense, @2airishuman and I get that many folks will say "Just dive" because of the skills progression to which you refer. This is also why I'm so interested in taking other courses (Peak Performance Buoyancy, Navigation, Search and Recover, etc.). I look at it like this. When I first started out in photography (on land) had someone told me to "just take pictures," it would have taken me twenty years to understand how to best manipulate the strobes I use for portraits. Taking a course (I have a photography degree from the now defunct Brooks Institute of Photography in Santa Barbara), it took a single classroom session and one studio session to understand that strobe exposure was controlled by the aperture and ambient exposure by the shutter speed.

Yes, I still have to dive (and look forward to all the learning I can do on those dives) but it would certainly help me progress at a speed at which I'm comfortable if someone were there to look at me and say, "You know, maybe you should get a pair of more buoyant fins, maybe you should tuck your hands in your cummerbund because you're sculling too much, maybe a trim weight near your tank valve could help your trim ... and here's why."

Great response, by the way. Thank you!

If I was to recommend classes to you, yes I would recommend the AOW simply because it makes additional dives available to you. After that I would HIGHLY recommend you and your wife taking a Rescue class.

This is the plan. Thanks!
 
I manage a resort in northern Minnesota, so it's been a week or so since I've been able to log in and keep up with everything happening here at Scubaboard. To that end, I see that there are four pages of responses to this small request for clarification. Thanks to everyone who responded. I'll try to respond a little bit at a time so as not to overwhelm anyone.




This is precisely my complaint.



Yes. This is exactly what I'm looking for.



Where does one go about finding instructors like these? What is the process?



Yes. Absolutely. I'm not looking to "master" some skill by the end of a training course, but I would like to have been trained in said skill above reading about it in a book and demonstrating that I can do it one time.

Here's an example: During my open water check-out dives, while demonstrating my ability to retrieve a lost regulator, my second stage began to free flow before it even left my hand. My arm was outstretched, away from my body, preparing to let it go when gas began flooding from it. Very calmly, I pulled the regulator back (having never let go of it) and stuck my finger in the mouthpiece to build up enough pressure to end the free flow. By the time I had completed the maneuver, however, I was feeling CO2 overload and needed a breath. I stuck the reg back in my mouth to take a breath with the intention of attempting the reg retrieval a second time. Instead, my instructor gave me the "okay" sign and moved to the next student. I didn't even get to officially complete the skill and was checked off.

In all fairness, the water temperature was 45° on the platform we were at, but there were only five students. Honestly, what would have been best for "testing" the reg retrieval skill (even if it happened in the pool sessions) would have been if the instructor randomly slapped the reg out of my mouth. How often are you going to pull your reg from your mouth and let go of it in a real world setting? It's likely to be kicked or slapped or otherwise dislodged in a moment of surprise. Using this to test the skill seems a better choice.

So, while I don't want to be a "master" of a skill, I'd still like to walk away from a training session I've paid for feeling (at the very least) confident and competent. I did not master the skills of essay writing from a single semester of English Composition in college, but it certainly helped me to feel more confident and competent.

Your suggestion for modifying reg recovery did make me chuckle :D. Although I commend your desire to be given a more realistic reg recovery scenario, I can just imagine PADI QA going into meltdown! Also, the skill requirement is to recover the regulator (from behind the shoulder), not necessarily to loose it in the first place. But yes you're right, even though you handled your freeflow correctly, your instructor did not meet standards by signing off without the actual skill being completed.

I might mention the new reg rec in AOB at the next PADI forum just for sh!ts and giggles though.
 
I just don't get the sense that I'm going to be able to find that great instructor others are talking about.

SB is full of people who care really, really deeply about instruction. People who are involved in curriculum development for PADI, and their friends, and instructors who teach other things for a living and are big into pedagogy and the psychology of learning.

The real world isn't like that. It's more like high school, where you maybe remember a handful of teachers you thought were really good, and where if you reflect upon that you realize that maybe only one or two of them actually were that good and the rest just had a lot in common with you so you got along well.

Nonetheless, good luck in your search.

This makes sense, @2airishuman and I get that many folks will say "Just dive" because of the skills progression to which you refer. This is also why I'm so interested in taking other courses (Peak Performance Buoyancy, Navigation, Search and Recover, etc.). I look at it like this. When I first started out in photography (on land) had someone told me to "just take pictures," it would have taken me twenty years to understand how to best manipulate the strobes I use for portraits. Taking a course (I have a photography degree from the now defunct Brooks Institute of Photography in Santa Barbara), it took a single classroom session and one studio session to understand that strobe exposure was controlled by the aperture and ambient exposure by the shutter speed.

Everyone learns in different ways. I don't do well in classroom environments, as a rule, but many people find them more helpful than I do.

Diving is more experiential, real time, physical, and rooted in psychomotor associations than photography. There are things that benefit from instruction but a great deal of being good at diving is just comfort underwater and understanding how to get your body and your gear to do what you want. No one can teach you how to manipulate a bolt snap in 5mm gloves, you just have to figure it out.
 
Sounds like we should fly to Florida and book some of @The Chairman's time.
It will be another 2 to 3 weeks before my leg will allow me to teach.

you just have to figure it out.
We're all adaptive divers. What works for me may not work for you.
 
We're all adaptive divers. What works for me may not work for you.

That’s part of why I’m going with abnfrog for tech. An instructor with knee issues can show a student with the same some things that might not occur to someone without those issues.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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