1st stage of regulator failed in close position - new diver freaking out a bit :)

[CuzzA]

tell that to the guy that is a fully paralyzed from the infection it gave him, not something I would do.

CESA from 25m isn't going to kill you though and because of the expansion in your lungs, if you're careful, you won't feel starved for breath on the way up. It's a long way, but it's easily doable. Hell freedivers do it all the time, that's why it's important to practice underwater swimming and skin diving skills. All of our students are required to pass a 25m underwater swim, as well as do the same swim in a CESA simulation. It's much harder because it is going across a 4m deep pool so you have to maintain buoyancy, but it's a worthwhile skill.

Pony bottles are a bandaid for poor buddy protocols unless you are solo diving and can't for whatever reason use truly redundant solutions

I suppose I would choose dead over complete paralysis. But I'd rather take my chances at the moment... I can always choose dead later.

CESA training is a little disingenuous if you're doing it on a full breath. A tip I learned from DD was to find a 6 story building, exhale and starting running up the stairs... see how far you can go before you pass out... Might want to bring a spotter.

As far as a pony is concerned. It's not a band-aid, It's a redundant air source and allows a diver to be self reliant. Period.

 

[rhwestfall]

CESA to me seems like it would work well if I inhaled and then began my ascent (thats what we practiced in the pool). I think we practiced CESA at 10m. In this case, at 25m, I had just exhaled, so my body's drive was to inhale. I dont think I can imagine being able to exhale much even with lung expansion during ascension.

then you need to either develop the skills or change your dive limits to correspond with your skill level...

 

[tbone1004]

CESA to me seems like it would work well if I inhaled and then began my ascent (thats what we practiced in the pool). I think we practiced CESA at 10m. In this case, at 25m, I had just exhaled, so my body's drive was to inhale. I dont think I can imagine being able to exhale much even with lung expansion during ascension. Not so worried about being bent. Just dont want to surface and be facedown unconscious.

you won't get bent in recreational limits, the risk is embolism, much much much worse than being bent, and is possible in 1m section of a pool if you aren't careful. This sounds like a valve problem not a regulator problem though and not much you can do about that. Impart proper buddy protocols and you don't have to worry.
Think twice before breathing off a bag

@CuzzA pony bottles are bandaids for bad team diving. You are either trusting your buddy to hold your spare air, or you aren't. If you aren't, you are solo diving, period. I am OK with pony bottles for solo diving, not for buddy diving. Same ocean diving is a form of solo diving, whether you or the agencies want to agree. For reference, my buddies and I all same ocean dive and treat everything as solo, but we are all technical trained and that is the way we have agreed to dive, whether in a quarry, or a mile back in a cave. In recreational diving, if you are following buddy diving protocols as laid out by the agencies, then there is no need for a pony bottle. You are within 1 kick cycle away from your buddy, and anyone can hold their breath for 15 seconds, no matter how out of air you are feeling

 

[rhwestfall]

respectfully, @tbone1004 I disagree. We implement a pony here in cold (sub-40 degree) water. Idea is, in the event of a free flow, we aren't stressing a single stage with two divers on it. Yes, doubles are a much better choice, and for the most part, it's my preference. Others in the group are still developing that mindset....

it's just another tool in the toolbox....

 

[tbone1004]

@rhwestfall I'd chalk that up to extenuating circumstances due to extremely elevated chance of regulator failure as opposed to in normal recreational diving and the start of this thread which is bad buddy protocols.

In an ice diving scenario, I'd rather use an H-valve or doubles over a pony bottle, but logistics of a pony bottle can often be easier due to the conditions

 

[CuzzA]

I agree with you @tbone1004, except the leading incident before death, according to DAN and besides medical, is buddy separation. This tells me the entire industry needs to reevaluate the mindset of how we are trained. Self reliance first, then buddy. Not the other way around. So, if they taught self reliance, it would include a redundant air source, like they teach in the self reliant or solo courses.

 

[rhwestfall]

Ice diving? Nah, it's just recreational diving in the Great Lakes.....

 

[david gutkin]

FYI, Came across this scenario described in the forums. Sounds like what happened to me...

I hope this information is useful to someone. 25 dives after a complete rebuild service for my Aqualung Legend LX I had my first stage fail shut at 60 feet 40 minutes into the dive. Fortunately my buddy recognized the international signal for out of air - eyes as wide as saucers - and he had his reg in my mouth ASAP. I had 1500 lbs left in the tank (although the gauge fell to zero until we got back to the boat). Took the regulator to a different Aqualung authorized service dive shop for analysis/repair and the issue was determined to be the ACD. From the dive shop - "We found that the ACD inner post valve and yoke nut had come loose." The regulator was rebuilt as listed on the intake documents and theses parts have been torqued to their proper specifications". So, holy cow - a bad service can result in a failed shut condition on the first stage with no prior indication that things are going south. Caveat Emptor.

So if not a quick kick to buddy: pull the weights and head up? Or is it just head up kicking and trying to exhale? Again, depth is at 25m starting in exhaled state? Are these viable options, or not? I seem to get conflicting answers from the dive guides.

 

[Dan]

... Scared the heck out of me! Before this, I was sure that any situation that occurred, there was a way to get out of trouble if i remained calm. But seriously, if my dive buddy was a few more feet away, I would "never dive again".

No sh*t, I'll be scared sh*tless too. That's why your buddy should be closed by to you at all time & checking each other often.

Did you check your octopus & found the same no air situation?

How many counter clockwise turns did you turn the valve open until it stop turning before you jumped into the water? I think it should be at least 2 full turns (2 x 360 degrees). Some valve experts here should verify on this number of turns. I just make sure it turns completely wide open. Period. A partially open valve can make the regulator to fail at depth.

The Quarter Turn That Kills

I have Scubapro MK35/S600 regulator for 11 years without any problem. You need to make sure it is sent for service annually.

 

[halocline]

Also, CESA is what we are taught (or buddy breath if possible)....but at 25m sounds like it is not realistic. What is the correct solution if this happens again? nobody seems to have a good answer.

If you are diving too deep for a comfortable CESA, stick with your buddy. The buddy system is one of the benchmarks of safe recreational diving. Carrying a pony would give you emergency air but does not address the other risks associated with solo diving. So IMO that's not really a good solution.

I'll go back and read the rest of the thread, but my guess is that something clogged the dip tube on your tank and then dislodged at your safety stop. The 'valve spring' that your dive op mentioned is a strong spring that pushes the 1st stage valve open, not shut. It's only air pressure that closes the valve; as soon as you inhale, you lower that pressure, and the spring pushes open the valve. Aqualung regulators are either balanced diaphragm or flow-by piston design. The piston design is a downstream design, meaning that tank pressure is pushing the valve open along with the spring. While the diaphragm is an upstream design, there is a steel pin connected to the seat that pushes it open with the main spring. I have never heard a confirmed case of one of those failing, but I guess its theoretically possible. But, if your gauge read zero, that means something emptied out the HP section of the regulator and air was prevented from filling it. If the main 1st stage valve had stuck shut, your SPG should have read normal tank pressure.

So that leaves basically the filter, any sort of auto-close device (what a terrible idea those things are) and the tank valve/dip tube as the only possible points of blockage. Aqualung does have some models with an auto-close device, but it appears to be designed so that it's physically impossible for it to close while the reg is correctly attached to a tank valve.