2 Dead in cave diving incident.

[Kim]

From what I can understand in this case - the divers here not only had all the training but also a lot of experience with this site. That's what makes it so sad and also scary. If nothing else it reinforces the fact that diving is a dangerous sport - whoever you are - and whatever you know.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Curt:

I have been reading everything I could get my hands on about this incident, which is to say I've been reading it at TDS.

Since you're one that is here as well as there, I'll ask you. My first (and only) question, knowing what we do at this point, is there any indication that they overstayed their welcome? IE Using scooters, did they voluntarily get into a gas management standards violation?

I assume (hate that word) since at least one computer has been retrieved and downloaded, it's should be simple enough to note an outright violation, knowing that any subtle grey-area "mini" violation (as noted above by another poster) may never be fully known to us. I realize than without ever knowing exactly what their initial fill PSI's it's a crap shoot, but I'd be willing to bet that they'd dive the same fill PSI's day in and day out as we all do. Especially on a dive like this.

Any light you could shed would be appreciated.

Steve

 

[crosing]

steve - what is TDS? Can you give a link to their website?

 

[ShoalDiverSA]

The Deco Stop.

http://www.thedecostop.com/

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[Spectre]

Again we come back to proper planning. Many people fail to recognize that rule's of thirds or sixth's are often MINIMUM rules for planning. If one thing goes wrong, it may get you out. If three things go wrong...

Precisely. In any decent cavern class, you will do timed line drills. You will do them with your eyes open, and you'll do them with your eyes closed in touch contact with your buddy. You quickly learn that it takes quite a bit longer to run the course. This -shows- you that while 1/3 is a minimum, and not a guarantee. It's all part of the risk assessment that is part of your dive plan, you weigh the risks of your gas plan based on your experience, your comfort, your knowledge of the site, the flow, etc...

Given the accident in question, where one buddy was 500 feet further into the cave, gas rules weren't the issue; he got lost and turned around. The other buddy was entangled in his safety reel; apparently attempting to locate the lost line.

Where they were in their gas plan at the time that everything went south really isn't relevant. It took, I believe, 30 minutes for the recovery divers to untangle Craig from his line.

Some people believe their gas plan was flawed from the start, and we're not talking about a thirds rule, or a sixths rule, we're talking about things way beyond much of our comprehension [e.g. stage bottles, reserving all your backgas, backup scooters, bottle stashes, etc], but while that -may- have saved John; it probably would only have delayed the inevitable for Craig.

Much like it's easy to brush all dive accidents off as drowning [since there is almost always drowning involved], it's easy to brush off an accident as 'not enough gas'. There's plenty of other things to look at that caused the need for more gas to deal with the problems. e.g. if you lock your keys in your running car when getting out at a rest area to go to the bathroom, and therefore don't have enough gas to get to the gas station because of it; was it a problem of not having enough gas?

 

[Scuba_Steve]

I hear ya Spectre, but my question was simply "yes" or "no" based, as the other points are "givens". (Or should be).

Thanks bud.

P.S. My question came about because of Cave Divers post, in which he wrote:

Again we come back to proper planning. Many people fail to recognize that rule's of thirds or sixth's are often MINIMUM rules for planning. If one thing goes wrong, it may get you out. If three things go wrong...

I think as cave diving becomes more mainstream, there are more people who are exposed to it that may not have the right mindset. It seems as if there are more people who think that the rules (of accident analysis) don't apply to them, or who think that they can bend them "just a little bit."

And maybe they can once. Twice. Even three times. But sooner or later its going to turn around and bite you in your cushy posterior area...............

I was wondering if just maybe the rules were bent "just a little bit".

Whether that would have been enough to save someone, as you say Spectre, maybe 1 of them, but not the other.

Thanks again.

 

[Spectre]

I think as cave diving becomes more mainstream, there are more people who are exposed to it that may not have the right mindset. It seems as if there are more people who think that the rules (of accident analysis) don't apply to them, or who think that they can bend them "just a little bit."

While I don't wish to imply any speculation to the accident at hand [disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer]...

It's pretty obvious that divers in general are pushing faster and harder than they have in the past, where the experience need is being dropped to the wayside and too much focus is placed on just the training. Patience is being replaced with desire, and a minimum of dives at each level is being done before seeking further training.

Another big issue is complacency. For those cave and cavern divers; how many times have you watched people not bother with running a line in the cavern zone to the main line? Same thing with wreck divers. They've been there plenty, and know it. What about those getting a little too far from the line to take a peak at something. It's just a peak, why waste time and gas futzing with a line; vis is good; no big deal.

Personally I don't see much evidence of gas management violations [rule of thirds], but I'm not convinced that everyone understands that it's not a guarantee.

The major thing i think, in looking at all these incidents, is that it's not the big things that get ya, it's the little things that get brushed off as little things, and eventually enough little things will sneak up on you and bite you in the ass.

A common saying is "don't sweat the little stuff". That absolutely does not apply in diving!

[edit: apologies... i didn't intend to ascend the soap-box.. oh well]

 

[MikeFerrara]

When you're that deep it's a different ball game. Gas goes fast so even a large reserve doesn't always mean a lot more time to solve a problem. A fairly small amount of additional bottom time can mean a lot of additional decompression with the amount of decompression gas needed going way up accordingly.

I've been to the restriction in Cannonball (about 280). I was still on my stage and hadn't even touched back gas yet and didn't want any part of entering a high flow restriction at that depth without having a bunch more gas with me. The only back gas we used was the little we breathed on a couple of short deep stops mostly while stowing our stages in preperation for picking up our 120 ft bottles.

All you need underwater is the right gas to breath.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

While I don't wish to imply any speculation to the accident at hand [disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer]...


Personally I don't see much evidence of gas management violations [rule of thirds], but I'm not convinced that everyone understands that it's not a guarantee.

A common saying is "don't sweat the little stuff". That absolutely does not apply in diving!

And I guess, incase that didn't hit home with us the first time you said it, the fact that it took 30mins for two divers to untangle him should make the above point.

 

[H2Andy]

has any further information been released on this?