a spin off to the dying a hero thread...

[cerich]

there is no reason to turn off a students gas, we get our students to do it. It is not defensible instruction to turn off a students gas ("so, you turned the gas off.. approx how much time passed between you doing that and your student drowning?")

There is ZERO question in my mind (and I have had my gas supply stop working in real life) that there is nothing to be gained by shutting a students gas off. We can easily drill the students to develop muscle memory responses to gas problems without needlessly endangering their safety.

My 2 psi, I am a NAUI Tech CD and have been teaching "tech" as a certified tech instr. since 1995.

 

[cerich]

My IANTD instructor trainer told me (afterwards) that he had had trouble stressing me, and had agreed with IANTD HQ (Tom Mount) various extreme things he could try. Not only did he shut off my air (at pretty extreme depth) but he was also permitted to cut one of my LP hoses. He didn't do that last though.

What is the point of never shutting off a regulator the student is breathing from? How does that provide stress-management training? You want as the instructor to throw at the student the most extreme failures the student might ever face for real, with the difference that you as the instructor are there to ensure it doesn't get out of hand. The instructor may not be there when it happens for real.

I don't believe that Tom would allow that, in fact if he did I am equally certain he would never admit to it. That whole post is scary and if true I question the judgment and knowledge and level of care and duty to the process and you the student. The true shame is that having survived it you somehow think it was "OK", it most certainly is not.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I'm curious as to why you are doing all this (if your post is correct) on only your 5th dive in doubles. And carrying a stage of some type. I know that by the time I took my intro and Helitrox course I had 10 or 12 dives in doubles just diving and getting used to them and adding a 40 cu ft bottle after I had been playing with a 19 for a number(maybe 25 or so) of dives. How many drills had you done in those doubles before adding a stage to the equation. I'm not a tech instructor or even an experienced tech diver but if my instructor would have had me all of a sudden put doubles and a stage on I'd have looked for a new instructor. Sounds like some serious overloading mentally as well as physical that you were not properly prepared for. How did the instructor address the mental and emotional aspects of this training? I've got close to a hundred dives in doubles now and probably half of those with a 30 or 40. I still feel I need a few more before I move to something bigger like an 80 or two bottles.

 

[TSandM]

Developing the situational awareness to know where all your gas supplies are, how they are secured, whether they are turned on or off, and what you are breathing takes TIME to develop. In my opinion, whether or not it is reasonable to turn off a student's gas unexpectedly, doing it at the very beginning of their technical training, WHILE they have a flooded mask, is over the top.

I've had some very strange things done to me in training, but they were very carefully and strategically selected, and failures did not compound until the instructor was quite sure I was ready to cope with that.

If it makes you feel any better, tdkgoddess, one of the stupid things I did in my Cave 2 class was to try to donate my stage reg, when what I wanted to do was get the diver in question on my long hose. It was my third dive with a stage, and I just didn't have all the cards filed in the right slot.

This kind of knowledge will come to you, as you continue to dive and train.

 

[rjack321]

Regardless of procedures, why's, whatevers, I appreciate all of the experiences provided to me, even if some consider them for the wrong reason. I have experienced them.

So what was the debrief of this OOA dive? What were you expected to learn? Where was your buddy in all this?

 

[Sas]

A sudden OOA situation is unrealistic and serves only to create panic. I would start instructor shopping if I were you.

I have had things like this done to me numerous times by instructors, and I have found it only beneficial for me. In cave training, one of our first dives involved our masks and one of our regs being taken unexpectedly at the same time and we had to buddy breath on exit. It's stressful to be blind, trying to get air off a buddy who also cannot see anything and then have to buddy breathe in 52F water with no mask on. All the other stuff that has been pulled on me was not nearly as stressful as being without air.

There seems to be some people who are adverse to stress testing and I do not understand why. If you can't deal with stressful situations (and the thing that is likely to put someone under the most stress is not getting air) then should you really be doing technical diving? I am surprised anyone would be satisfied with training that would not stress them in this manner.

 

[Wormil]

I agree with Sas, during class, I had an actual failure of a post while doing no vis OOA share. Instinct shut the valve down, thought turned it back on.

I'm sorry, but a 40 is a luxury item. I don't have one, only 80s. My first dive in doubles was with an 80 stage.

In all honesty, I think people are making a big deal out of nothing. Chick knows she don't like having no air now. Next time, problems will be solved in order of need. Backup reg in mouth first, mask clear second.

Fail thread is fail.

 

[peterbj7]

I don't believe that Tom would allow that, in fact if he did I am equally certain he would never admit to it. That whole post is scary and if true I question the judgment and knowledge and level of care and duty to the process and you the student. The true shame is that having survived it you somehow think it was "OK", it most certainly is not.

I presume you don't know him. I have done several courses with him as his student, including instructor-level courses.

You say "survived it" as if that was a miracle. My various courses built up to this sort of stage gradually, and far from just "surviving" it I took it in my stride and barely noticed it. Which was the object of the training - to make the student so prepared for the unthinkable that it is barely a surprise to him.

 

[Wormil]

Oh yeah, and if I find out you an heroed while diving, I'll be pissed and make you a special fail poster. So don't do it.

 

[peterbj7]

We can easily drill the students to develop muscle memory responses to gas problems without needlessly endangering their safety

Leaving aside the erroneous suggestion of "needlessly endangering the student's safety", I disagree with the initial statement. A drill practised in sanitised surroundings is just that, a drill, and is no preparation for the adrenalin rush when it's for real. As IANTD philosophy says, "in a crisis, it is the poorly learned skills that are forgotten first".