Alleged illegal tanks sold by Add Helium-Heads up to any that may have purchased

[iain/hsm]

Cerich,

These cylinders were a concern from the beginning and these concerns were raised about the product, and the supplier of these cylinders.

We discussed on this very forum August 22, 2014. The post was titled : "Carbon fibre scuba tank"

Carbon fiber scuba tank

Most of the relevant detail as to the cylinders in question, and an interesting link between the supplier of a
woman's muslim headgear koran and sundry muslim equipment supplier sharing the same web site and postal address
as the European dive equipment and the China export fibre wrap cylinder supplier was also discussed.

However all of these discussions were removed by the Mods it will take me some time to recover the posts

However to kick off below is the copy of one of the posts and reply from Add Helium for reference.

Hello iain/hsm,

Add Helium has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Carbon fiber scuba tank - in the Tanks, Valves and Bands forum of ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network.

As a reminder, you must use the link to respond to a post. Replies to this message will not be seen by the poster nor will they be amended to the current post.

This thread is located at:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/tanks-valves-bands/490279-carbon-fiber-scuba-tank-new-post.html

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by iain/hsm)---
Just a word of caution here specifically regarding this Add Helium advert claim.

It is important to get full disclosure on these cylinders specifically for diving as they are marketed in China and designed originally for CNG (compressed natural gas) despite the oxygen label affixed.

Further albeit claiming CE the "Add Helium's" comical suggestion that these cylinders under CE exceed DOT is a most divisive and misleading statement.

1. Made in China. CE is also a meaningless acronym for "China Export"
2. The manufacturer claim only an ISO9001 QA "system"? of China Fangyuam Attest Committee

It is in my mind prudent to get additional independent testing and approval for this product or at least some research or as they say in there advert more fillers will refuse you a fill. Cant say they didn't warn you

Alternatively the Luxfer DOT cylinder is of US manufacture approval has been granted by DOT and fully approved from the most of all experienced manufacturers. To my mind these two suppliers cannot be compared save one being competent.

There is a specific reason why there is a difficulty in getting approval for fibre wrap cylinders for use underwater further more an additional difficulty in getting an oxygen content approval.

And "Add Helium" with there China Export claim both? ..Really?

Maybe you could ring this Tony and ask him for the approval certification China Export will do nicely. LOL Iain
---End Quote--- 25th August 2014
............................................................................


Add helium reply
Hello,

We make no secret they are manufactured in China. Lots of I've gear is manufactured in China. Chinese manufacture doesn't make something a bad product, provided it is done so to the specifications of the purchaser, with a good QA program.

In the case of these tanks, we do not import them from China directly. We purchase them from a European distributor who has them made to their specifications for use in diving applications and for use with 100% o2, and does their own QA.

As far as CE, these cylinders are represented to us as being CE certified. True the statement on our website that CE exceeds DOT is a bit ambiguous. These cylinders have a working pressure of 300 bar and a maximum rated pressure of 450 bar. This is far above the pressure they will see under normal use in the US (~250 bar,) and that is why we make that statement.
***************
..............................................................................
There may be other replies also, but you will not receive any more notifications until you visit the forum again.

Thank you,

The ScubaBoard Team
www.scubaboard.com


Can I also respectfully suggest those interested take copy of these various posts purely as a
matter of record. As I was surprised that the original post has been severely edited.

 

[cerich]

Cerich,

These cylinders were a concern from the beginning and these concerns were raised about the product, and the supplier of these cylinders.

We discussed on this very forum August 22, 2014. The post was titled : "Carbon fibre scuba tank"

Carbon fiber scuba tank

Most of the relevant detail as to the cylinders in question, and an interesting link between the supplier of a
woman's muslim headgear koran and sundry muslim equipment supplier sharing the same web site and postal address
as the European dive equipment as the China export fibre wrap cylinder supplier was also discussed.

However all of these discussions were removed by the Mods it will take me some time to recover the posts

However to kick off below is the copy of one of the posts and reply from Add Helium for reference.

Hello iain/hsm,

Add Helium has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Carbon fiber scuba tank - in the Tanks, Valves and Bands forum of ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network.

As a reminder, you must use the link to respond to a post. Replies to this message will not be seen by the poster nor will they be amended to the current post.

This thread is located at:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/tanks-valves-bands/490279-carbon-fiber-scuba-tank-new-post.html

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by iain/hsm)---
Just a word of caution here specifically regarding this Add Helium advert claim.

It is important to get full disclosure on these cylinders specifically for diving as they are marketed in China and designed originally for CNG (compressed natural gas) despite the oxygen label affixed.

Further albeit claiming CE the "Add Helium's" comical suggestion that these cylinders under CE exceed DOT is a most divisive and misleading statement.

1. Made in China. CE is also a meaningless acronym for "China Export"
2. The manufacturer claim only an ISO9001 QA "system"? of China Fangyuam Attest Committee

It is in my mind prudent to get additional independent testing and approval for this product or at least some research or as they say in there advert more fillers will refuse you a fill. Cant say they didn't warn you

Alternatively the Luxfer DOT cylinder is of US manufacture approval has been granted by DOT and fully approved from the most of all experienced manufacturers. To my mind these two suppliers cannot be compared save one being competent.

There is a specific reason why there is a difficulty in getting approval for fibre wrap cylinders for use underwater further more an additional difficulty in getting an oxygen content approval.

And "Add Helium" with there China Export claim both? ..Really?

Maybe you could ring this Tony and ask him for the approval certification China Export will do nicely. LOL Iain
---End Quote--- 25th August 2014
............................................................................


Add helium reply
Hello,

We make no secret they are manufactured in China. Lots of I've gear is manufactured in China. Chinese manufacture doesn't make something a bad product, provided it is done so to the specifications of the purchaser, with a good QA program.

In the case of these tanks, we do not import them from China directly. We purchase them from a European distributor who has them made to their specifications for use in diving applications and for use with 100% o2, and does their own QA.

As far as CE, these cylinders are represented to us as being CE certified. True the statement on our website that CE exceeds DOT is a bit ambiguous. These cylinders have a working pressure of 300 bar and a maximum rated pressure of 450 bar. This is far above the pressure they will see under normal use in the US (~250 bar,) and that is why we make that statement.
***************
..............................................................................
There may be other replies also, but you will not receive any more notifications until you visit the forum again.

Thank you,

The ScubaBoard Team
www.scubaboard.com

Thanks,I missed that thread.

I did however visit the Add helium website and looked at the cylinders you mention and between your post and their web site find myself fairly appalled.

Their web site does not reference the alleged CE rating.

They are also claiming that

• "Higher air resources = higher safety"..like seriously??? that is absurd, it may sound good to the uneducated but seriously???
  
  

To my thinking, while standards internationally may differ, for a business to import and sell a non certified HP cylinder into the US that does not meet the relevant laws is extremely irresponsible. I am fully aware that some divers have individually chosen to import cylinders and use them that aren't DOT certified. They also generally fill them themselves and are assuming the risk (potential of failure and legal wise) in full knowledge. For a business to engage in such, with wholesale reselling and deliberate efforts to present them as "safe' when they are fully aware they fall under yet meet no US regulatory requirements is unethical at best. The legality is for the system to decide but I certainly think it must be illegal as well.

Their claims on the cylinders are;

Highest safety and quality standards take top priority

• Cylinders have a steel liner (CrMO-steel)
• Carbon fibre wrapping (cylindrical shell)
• 5 independent quality and safety examinations during the production process:
  - "Birnell-Hardness Survey"
  - Visual examination (inside and outside, multiple controlling of the thread)
  - Ultrasonic examination
  - Hydraulic compression test
  - Final examination before delivery
  
  
  

Zero,zip nada about CE, DOT etc.

 

[iain/hsm]

Cerich.

To make the relevant background regarding these cylinders and Add Helium being fully aware of the potential problem way back in 2014
Here is more from that thread that was removed from the original post,

iain/hsm
Ok here's how we are going to do this, I'm going to list 10 points while you pair wait for Tony. But you also get and do some shopping while we all wait so not all bad. How does that sound?

1. If we look at the Add Helium advert a 2 litre Carbon Fiber Cylinders $549 USD

The first thing to note is the disclaimer "These tanks are not DOT approved"

2. Also note they state: (quote) While they meet CE standards (which exceed DOT standards) some dive shops may be unable or unwilling to fill them.

Yet interestingly to me at least they don't disclose the actual standard they are built to.

3. Now take a look at the photo (enlarge it) this tells you manufacture and CE0086

4. Now take a look at this Euro diving zone web site shown as the supplier on the cylinder photo. On there web site look at bare cylinders 2 litres 290 euro (about $380 USD) and read the details.

SCUBA Carbon Fiber Bare Cylinder - Euro Diving Zone Store

5. Note they state WP working pressure 300 bar (4350 psi) then under this is states the BURST pressure as 450 bar (6525 psi)

6. Now ask yourself why a dive shop may not be able or willing to fill with such a small difference between working pressure and burst pressure. But give them credit maybe its a typo and they really ment to say test pressure LOL so:

7. Next do a google search on the address of this Euro Dive Zone you will get that from the contact us at the bottom of there web page

8. You may now wish at this stage to do some shopping as at the same address of Euro Diving Zone with a similar web layout is the Arabian Shopping Zone.

For Women - Islamic Clothes - Arabian Shopping Zone

A quick look at there products show a fine range of Hijab, and a very fetching Arabian decency Abaya and some rather smart women's swimming attire you may both like. Maybe you could do a deal and buy both a tank and a Hijab and save on postage? Just a suggestion.

9. In the mean time a Google maps search of the address: Granåsvägen 204,
468 33 Vargön, Sweden shows a very fetching blue two bedroom apartment.
Granåsvägen 204, 468 33 Vargön, Sweden

http://goo.gl/maps/8WqH2

10. Now I confess that I don't know much about Islamic dress Hijabs and the like but I now know you can buy both from the same address so can we say with confidence that these cylinders come built to the highest specification and standard.

Now while you wait for this Tony would you prefer me to continue? Iain
For reference:

For Women - Islamic Clothes - Arabian Shopping Zone

http://www.eurodivingzone.com/scuba_carbon_fiber_bare_cylinder-details.aspx

 

[cerich]

By the way..I am sitting here trying to digest Add Heliums claims that the Euro importer they buy from has the Chinese factory making the tanks under their specific QA protocols and frankly I am amazed. Yes, all of us spec out and will add some QA steps to OEM/ODM products, however, HP cylinders are, even in China regulated. That aside, the equipment and investment to make cylinders is massive, and the dive industry tiny, tiny, tiny in the big picture demand for HP cylinders. I could see maybe doing a spec on the wrap material,density, thickness etc and the factory doing it,I don't possibly see how anybody could afford the testing for compliance..for CE or DOT (for compliance in China, I could totally see blind eyes,especially if for export)

 

[iain/hsm]

Cerich

Here is more from Add helium regarding the cylinders:

Originally Posted by Add Helium
Hello,
We make no secret they are manufactured in China. Lots of I've gear is manufactured in China. Chinese manufacture doesn't make something a bad product, provided it is done so to the specifications of the purchaser, with a good QA program.
In the case of these tanks, we do not import them from China directly. We purchase them from a European distributor who has them made to their specifications for use in diving applications and for use with 100% o2, and does their own QA.

As far as CE, these cylinders are represented to us as being CE certified. True the statement on our website that CE exceeds DOT is a bit ambiguous. These cylinders have a working pressure of 300 bar and a maximum rated pressure of 450 bar. This is far above the pressure they will see under normal use in the US (~250 bar,) and that is why we make that statement.

Iain/hsm reply
Hello, I guess your Tony
Frankly we were expecting something specific, but what the heck I guess we work with what we got.

.............................................................................................................................................................

Originally Posted by Add Helium

provided it is done so to the specifications of the purchaser, with a good QA program.


Iain/hsm reply
1. Your statement: "provided it is done so to the specifications of the purchaser, with a good QA program"
OK first point. I will run with this and in general I would agree except can I ask what kind of good QA program do you need while working out of a two bedroom Swedish council estate selling Korans and Muslim stuff with your scuba tanks is what I don't fully understand.
Except perhaps with hope and a prayer for the specification and maybe faith for the QA
Look I can see say Luxfer having a good QA program further more I can see there independent assessment of that. But with you we have nothing.

...............................................................................................................................................................

Originally Posted by Add Helium

We purchase them from a European distributor who has them made to their specifications

iain/hsm reply
2. This is a dangerous claim to make and frankly a foolish one. Again this European distributor is this the same guy with the prayer mats and swimming dresses? your telling me that these made in China tanks are made to "his" specification. Please give me a break.

Any wonder dive shop fillers are running a tad sceptical on your firms claims Tony .

...................................................................................................................................................................

Originally Posted by Add Helium

True the statement on our website that CE exceeds DOT is a bit ambiguous. These cylinders have a working pressure of 300 bar and a maximum rated pressure of 450 bar.

iain/hsm reply
3. Ambiguous ! Wow you said it Tony, You said It. Frankly I wouldn't dare.

But as your now claiming a working pressure of 300 bar and a maximum rated pressure of 450 bar are you kidding me?

Frankly your well out of your depth here you should not be selling pressure vessels. Do yourself a big favour and remove them from your website. Your making false and misleading statements.
............................................................................................................................................................................

Originally Posted by Add Helium

for use in diving applications and for use with 100% o2, and does their own QA.

iain/hsm reply
4. For use with 100% oxygen and does their own QA

ROFL With that pearl of wisdom thankfully I think you just sold your last fibre wrapped Made in China junk claim scuba tank dude. Iain

Note:
All Referenced posts from Scubaboard forum "Carbon fiber scuba tank August 22-25. 2014

 

[akdeepdiver]

Wow, I'm watching this one like a soap opera on telemundo.

 

[Storker]

5. Note they state WP working pressure 300 bar (4350 psi) then under this is states the BURST pressure as 450 bar (6525 psi)

6. Now ask yourself why a dive shop may not be able or willing to fill with such a small difference between working pressure and burst pressure. But give them credit maybe its a typo and they really ment to say test pressure LOL

These cylinders have a working pressure of 300 bar and a maximum rated pressure of 450 bar.

And they fail doubly in showing any understanding of EU test protocols. Around here, test pressure (which is 150% of rated work pressure) is neither burst pressure nor "maximum rated pressure".

Not quite giving the impression of being a competent seller...

 

[akdeepdiver]

I want to know who writes their liability insurance policy cause I need to get one from that company. By saying that the cylinders are ok to use in the USA because another countries standards are better so the DOT approval doesn't matter just seems to me like your opening yourself up to some big Leagel liability.

 

[EricTheDood]

Lots of poor wording in the thread title and many of these posts. It's misleading.

The term "illegal tanks" suggests stolen merchandise. Criminal activity.

False DOT stamping would be considered "consumer fraud".

The controversy surrounding the carbon fiber tanks is neither of these things.

So... what exactly is this discussion about?

 

[Jax]

Lots of poor wording in the thread title and many of these posts. It's misleading.

The term "illegal tanks" suggests stolen merchandise. Criminal activity.

False DOT stamping would be considered "consumer fraud".

The controversy surrounding the carbon fiber tanks is neither of these things.

So... what exactly is this discussion about?

Did you follow the link and read the complaint?