BP/W for me and my son?

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Stuartv - I don't think Tobin or anyone else has said you must dive a wing with x amount of lift. These are guidelines. If you personally don't agree then by all means dive a larger wing. The scuba police will only give you a warning [emoji6].

It took me a couple of emails and phone calls to finally get Tobin's logic in my very thick head. Once I dove my DSS rig for the first time I became a believer. That was with a 7mm wetsuit, 16#s of lead and AL 80. That same rig has served me well in the tropics with a 3mm and 6#s of lead. It's a DSS long SS BP and 26# wing.

Ditching $100 in lead is worth not drowning. At least from a income potential perspective
[emoji3]

Safe diving!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
It's ok Stuart, I thought I knew everything after my first beer too. To try to stack your 1 yr / 50 dives up against Tobin's years of diving and manufacturing experience if beyond foolish. If you're not busy, I think the Rousch brothers need some help on car setup... your Prius experience should come in handy...
 
Kayak diving. Diving from a RIB like in the Galapagos. Boating an injured diver. :)

New diver, rental gear, check-in dive, wrong amount of weight. You can go back to shore to fetch/leave the extra lead wearing all that gear or you can leave it floating with your buddy holding on to it. Going back may involve climbing up ladders.
 
OK....so Mark, have you figured out yet what you want to do for you and your son? I would be curious to see which way you go. As for the HOG harness vs the comfort harness goes, well that is personal preference IMO. I dive a BP&W with a comfort harness myself. I may have to pack on a couple of extra pounds but oh well, I like the harness.


I can't disagree that talking with Tobin can be rough but if that is the BP&W you want then either call him and take it or buy it off the site based on your own research and what you want to do with your diving. I will add that if Tobin was to be a bit more friendly rather than "blunt" he might just corner the BP&W market because he does have nice gear.


As for warm water diving. I took my steel plate out and put in an AL plate and dove the same harness is Cozumel last April. It worked out great and packed down real nice in my luggage.


Good luck and safe diving!
 
Wow... First... I have never posted before but this post hits home. I am trying to figure out if I want to buy a BW&P for myself, son (17), and daughter (14). I have been reading everything and only get confused. Having never spoken to Tobin but I assume his questions will be something close to the following:

What is your current gear setup? Where do you dive? Give me you last XXX number of dive profiles? What are your measurements, height/weight?

How about the two arguing give their advise as to what I should get. I will not be buying in the next few days but hopefully before the next spring.

My SPecs

5 foot 8 inches 165 pounds - Kit 5 MM Seac wet suit, hollis HD100, MK25/S600, Nova 700 light, basic scuba pro fins . Last two dives (today) 30 meters, 5KGs Temp 64 degrees / 18 meters 4Kgs 72 Degrees. all other dives in the past month are very close to that. Except that I went down to 4Kgs today. I dive in the Med, San Felice Cicreo, south of Rome.

So what should I get? I am thinking of getting myself a BW&P and handing down my Hollis to my son. He is 5 foot 9/10 inches 135ish. Dive profile is the same and gear is close rental wetsuit and BCD.

If you want to be fair you can both PM me and I will post your answers as one post.

Sean
 
Wow... First... I have never posted before but this post hits home. I am trying to figure out if I want to buy a BW&P for myself, son (17), and daughter (14). I have been reading everything and only get confused. Having never spoken to Tobin but I assume his questions will be something close to the following:

What is your current gear setup? Where do you dive? Give me you last XXX number of dive profiles? What are your measurements, height/weight?

How about the two arguing give their advise as to what I should get. I will not be buying in the next few days but hopefully before the next spring.

My SPecs

5 foot 8 inches 165 pounds - Kit 5 MM Seac wet suit, hollis HD100, MK25/S600, Nova 700 light, basic scuba pro fins . Last two dives (today) 30 meters, 5KGs Temp 64 degrees / 18 meters 4Kgs 72 Degrees. all other dives in the past month are very close to that. Except that I went down to 4Kgs today. I dive in the Med, San Felice Cicreo, south of Rome.

So what should I get? I am thinking of getting myself a BW&P and handing down my Hollis to my son. He is 5 foot 9/10 inches 135ish. Dive profile is the same and gear is close rental wetsuit and BCD.

If you want to be fair you can both PM me and I will post your answers as one post.

Sean

There are two different topics here - don't confuse the two... One is, what type of BCD should you get for you and your family? Two is, what is the experience like talking with Tobin to figure out which of the DSS BCD systems would he recommend for each of you?

To start with the second topic, I have never bought any BCD systems from Deep Sea Supply but I have called them for other things. Tobin has always talked to me when it was appropriate forum to answer the question. Does Tobin come across as blunt? Yes. Can he be short? Yes. Does he answer questions to the best of his ability? Yes. Does he sell you stuff you don't need or stuff that will not work for what you want to do? No. To put another way, if you get a solid recommendation from Tobin, the recommendation is a well qualified one and likely, you will be very happy with the product.

Now, to the first topic. There are lots and lots of threads where people go back and forth about whether standard BCDs are better or backplate systems are better. Personally, I believe that you cannot go wrong with a quality backplate system from Halcyon or Deep Sea Supply. Backplate systems work very well for recreational open water diving. And the system can grow with you as your diving evolves into something more elaborate (i.e. deeper dives, dives into overhead environments, etc.).

Think about which bit you find confusing... if it is standard BCD vs. BP/W, then focus on that. If you have already decided on a BP/W but are afraid to engage a specific vender, then, seek another vendor. There are quite a few to pick from.
 
One advantage with DSS back plates is that they come in five sizes. Most manufacturers have one size and one or two others make two sizes. Imagine if standard BCD manufacturers only made one size... We all know one size does not really fit all in most things.
 
Wow... First... I have never posted before but this post hits home. I am trying to figure out if I want to buy a BW&P for myself, son (17), and daughter (14). I have been reading everything and only get confused. Having never spoken to Tobin but I assume his questions will be something close to the following:

What is your current gear setup? Where do you dive? Give me you last XXX number of dive profiles? What are your measurements, height/weight?

How about the two arguing give their advise as to what I should get. I will not be buying in the next few days but hopefully before the next spring.

My SPecs

5 foot 8 inches 165 pounds - Kit 5 MM Seac wet suit, hollis HD100, MK25/S600, Nova 700 light, basic scuba pro fins . Last two dives (today) 30 meters, 5KGs Temp 64 degrees / 18 meters 4Kgs 72 Degrees. all other dives in the past month are very close to that. Except that I went down to 4Kgs today. I dive in the Med, San Felice Cicreo, south of Rome.

So what should I get? I am thinking of getting myself a BW&P and handing down my Hollis to my son. He is 5 foot 9/10 inches 135ish. Dive profile is the same and gear is close rental wetsuit and BCD.

If you want to be fair you can both PM me and I will post your answers as one post.

Sean

Typically I need:

1) Height and weight. Height largely determines plate size and weight gives me a clue about your "personal" buoyancy

2) What is the actual buoyancy of the most buoyant suit you plan to use with this gear, what is the actual buoyancy of the least buoyant suit you plan to use with this gear. Almost nobody has this information, and it is key as it impacts the selection of plate material and wing lift. If you don't have it we may be able to estimate it if you have reliable information on your current configuration, ballast carried, BC used, tank used etc. That you used "4kg" without including what you used for a cylinder prevents any usable estimates.

3) What you use for cylinders.

4) Future plans, doubles? Diving in different conditions? Planning on new exposure protection etc.

Keep in mind that a BP&W is a modular BC. That means it's possible to optimize it for a given application. It also means the wider the application the greater the compromises you will need to make. People look to a BP&W because they want better performing BC, and trying to build single "do it all" rig may defeat some of the advantages a BP&W can provide.

Telling me you *might* some day use a drysuit with a high loft undergarment, but also dive in board shorts and T shirt with every thing from al80's to HP130's is not all that helpful...... Be as specific as possible, and keep the range as narrow as possible without a bunch of "maybe some day I'll" conditions.

Tobin
 
How about the two arguing give their advise as to what I should get.
In evaluating the responses, you may wish to give at least some weight to the relative breadth and depth of the experience of the individuals from whom advice may come (as with most things on SB). Just a thought.
I have been reading everything and only get confused.
I am curious. Are there particular technical areas of confusion about BP/W rigs? Or, is the confusion something akin to, 'What model of computer should I buy?', or more along the lines of 'Should I buy a Ford / Chevrolet / Nissan / Toyota, KIA (etc., etc.)?'

---------- Post added August 30th, 2015 at 03:29 AM ----------

Every time we rent we get different age wetsuit (different compression factors etc) and different BC's but all are vest style and we have sinking legs with those, so wrestling with buoyancy and trim at times . . . . We want back inflate for trim issues but no rentals for those.
Mark, one other thought, if you are still with us on the thread (and haven't moved on, waiting for the fighting to stop :) ): it is not uncommon to see comments about 'sinking legs', particularly from newer divers. I would caution you that simply changing to a back-inflation unit from a jacket BCD may not fully address the trim issues. The switch is a good idea, don't get me wrong. But, you can achieve great horizontal trim with both a back-inflation unit or a jacket, or you can fail to achieve it with either. A lot depends on weighting - the total amount you carry and the distribution of that weight.

Think about your physiologic center of lift (CoL). Where is it? Generally, it will be somewhere in your thorax, above your diaphragm and below your collarbone - i.e. your lungs. OK, for those of us who have spent a lifetime developing a reserve store of bioprene, we may have supplemental buoyancy / lift as well, but the center fundamentally remains the same. In fact, think about what we try to teach in dive training - i.e. control your position in the vertical water column with your breathing, NOT by adding / purging air from your BCD. When you strap on a BCD, whether jacket or BI, you functionally augment the existing center of lift, as the bladder generally sits in the same general area as your physiologic center of lift. Now, where is your center of gravity/weight when diving? For many, it is 'lower' than the CoL, it is at the waist line. When you wear a weight belt, or even with many weight-integrated BCDs, the center of gravity / weight is below the center of lift. In the water, the two try to align vertically, and that weight pulls your legs down, while your lungs raise your (upper) body. It is not that your legs are necessarily 'sinking', or 'heavy', or negatively buoyant (in a small number of cases that may be true, but not for the most part), you are simply seeing physics in action. The solution - move the two 'centers' closer together. Many BCDs today come with trim weight pockets, usually located higher on the BCD, and taking some weight off the waist and moving it 'up' to those pockets really helps. But, divers still are reluctant to move too much weight to those pockets (from their waist), for a variety of reasons, and the center of gravity remains misaligned with the center of lift.

One advantage of a hard (metal) backplate, is that it moves weight to a position where it is more directly aligned with the center of lift. Not only that, a SS backplate, with a simple web harness, and SS waist buckle and SS D-rings, is generally going to be negatively buoyant. In contrast, most fabric BCDs - be they jacket or back-inflation - are positively buoyant, which means you add more weight to your center of gravity to compensate, which only worsens the mis-alignment of lift with weight / gravity.

The point - don't expect the 'sinking legs' trim issue to necessarily disappear if you only switch from a floaty jacket BCD to a equally floaty back-inflation BCD. Changing your weight distribution is equally, and possibly more, important. (Another way to affect that weight distribution is to switch from a longer AL cylinder to a shorter steel cylinder, but that is a different topic.) I dive a jacket BCD at times (teaching) and a (metal) backplate at times. And, good horizontal trim is possible to achieve with both. But, I carry more weight with the jacket, and horizontal trim is easier to achieve if I take my weight belt off my waist and drape it across my shoulders - not suggesting you do that, only pointing out the importance of weight distribution. (In fact, I use that shift in weight distribution with students to emphasize the the notion of horizontal trim, but that is also a discussion for another venue.)
 
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Good post colliam. The other thing to consider with jacket BC's and trim pockets is that the majority of those I have seen are just plain wrong as far as location. The pockets are either mid back or even as low as the kidneys. I have yet to see one where they are up near the shoulders where they could do some good. Hence the reason for weights on the cam bands or even the tank neck. It's as if the people designing them have no concept of balance or physics in general.
 
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