BP/W is just a tool

[Divedoggie]

After recently watching a linked video here on SB with a few divers wearing BP/Ws, long hose/bungied alt, and jetfins, and then struggling mightily to get through a coral swim-through without banging off the walls or crawling along the bottom, I felt compelled to comment.

Here on Scubaboard, whenever questions are raised about what kind of BCD is recommended, there always seems to be a rush to push people in the direction of back plate and wing.

Just as a carpenter has many tools in the toolbox to use for each specific project, there are many tools available for the types of diving people do. Fit and familiarity, functionality and safety, along with the skill needed to use the tools properly are the paramount factors for effective use of dive gear.

For people diving back mounted doubles, BP/W is the way to go. Its quite easy to switch wings, mount the STA and be ready to dive a single.

When diving a single with drysuit, depending on water temps, insulation thickness will determine the amount of weight carried, but on average for me its about 24 lbs. The BP/W with STA and HP100 enables me to carry less than 10 lbs on my belt. The weight is nicely distributed across the torso, and it is a very stable platform.
I also like the simplicity and uncluttered feel around the torso.

What I dont like about a BP/W is its inflexibility, chicken-winging in and out of the harness, and the pressure of the steel plate across my shoulder blades, especially when walking a little way to the entry point.

When diving locally on weekends, its exclusively drysuit and BP/W. When teaching during the week, its exclusively in my Zeagle Brigade.(Ranger with smaller 35lb bladder.) Every Monday after a weekend of local diving, I slip the Brigade on for a pool session and think, "wow this is so comfortable."

In warm water, with a 3mm wetsuit carrying a total of 6 lbs, I greatly prefer the Brigade over the BP/W. Buoyancy and trim are just as good as the BP/W. Its easier to slip on and off, and the convenience of the pockets is nice. (Really don't want to glue a pocket to the thigh of my 3mm wetsuit.)

The chest is uncluttered, the padding feels nice, and even with the 6 lbs in the integrated pockets, it weights less than my SS BP/W.

Some of my DM and Instructor friends in the Caribbean have 10,000 to 15,000 dives in vest style BCDs, with 36" octo and Mares quattro fins. They have phenomenal skills with perfect trim and control. There are extremely experienced divers on SB who elected to use a basic Scubapro vest style BC for their entire diving career and as far as I know, never lamented not using the BP/W.


Conclusion:

The new Bugatti is the fastest production car in the world with top speed surpassing 260 mph. Its not for everybody, sure would like one though!

Back Plate and Wings may or may not be for everbody.

For warm water diving, a BP/W is unneccesary and possibly inferior. If you add pads, pockets and ditchable weight pockets, why not just get a BCD that is already built that way?
For cold water diving, a BP/W is the right choice and definitely superior.

Equipment does not make a good diver. IMO most divers would need to be quite skilled before they could even switch back and forth between a BCD and a BP/W and appreciate the nuances of difference.

 

[RICHinNC]

Like you say.....to each his/her own. Sounds like those you saw had more bouyancy problems than equipment problems.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Please, feel free to dive any gear you want.

I am forever amused at the negative reaction some have to a BP&W user wishing to share their good experiences with others.

The new Bugatti is the fastest production car in the world with top speed surpassing 260 mph. Its not for everybody, sure would like one though!

Flawed analogy. For starters at ~ 2 Million USD the Bugatti is about 50 times the cost of new SUV. The Bugatti offers performance that only a handful of drivers could ever make full use of. Neither of these is true for a BP&W.

Back Plate and Wings may or may not be for everbody.

I've never claimed BP&W's are the only solution, and you'd be very hard pressed to find even the most vocal SB proponent of BP&W who would suggest BP&W are the only fit kit for all. What you do see is happy BP&W users eager to share their experiences with gear that many new divers may have never seen.

For warm water diving, a BP/W is unneccesary and possibly inferior.

Large numbers of my customers would disagree.

If you add pads, pockets and ditchable weight pockets, why not just get a BCD that is already built that way?

I agree. If you feel the need to try and turn a BP&W back into a conventional BC by adding a bunch of unnecessary accessories why bother.

I routinely counsel my prospective customers to avoid doing exactly that. Realizing the full benefits of a BP&W requires a new approach to the use of and the outfitting of the diver's "rig".

Proper weighting, taking only what you really need on the dive, and optimizing dive gear for actual diving, i.e. in the water can require a new mind set.

For cold water diving, a BP/W is the right choice and definitely superior.

Equipment does not make a good diver.

No argument here.

IMO most divers would need to be quite skilled before they could even switch back and forth between a BCD and a BP/W and appreciate the nuances of difference.

?? You mean like a stereo "snob"? That's not my experience at all. Most of our users find the advantages of BP&W's to be significant, not nuanced.

BTW, If your BP&W is truly uncomfortable I'd suggest you may not have it properly adjusted.

Tobin

 

[knowone]

"Hey dude you coming in for a splash?"

"Yeah. Hang on. I just need to get my head around struggling into this plough share and walking to the boat.

"I can't believe I listened to those pushy ignorant assholes reccomending this junk to a new bloke?"

 

[Divedoggie]

Please, feel free to dive any gear you want.

I am forever amused at the negative reaction some have to a BP&W user wishing to share their good experiences with others.

Realizing the full benefits of a BP&W requires a new approach to the use of and the outfitting of the diver's "rig".

Proper weighting, taking only what you really need on the dive, and optimizing dive gear for actual diving, i.e. in the water can require a new mind set.

BTW, If your BP&W is truly uncomfortable I'd suggest you may not have it properly adjusted.

Tobin

The point was to feel free to use any equipment that you want. The idea was to afford some comments, positive and negative, based on using both systems regularly.

The thread isn't a negative reaction to the BP/W users(I am one) In fact most of my comment was positive. However, thread after thread of people inquiring about which new BC to buy ends up strongly steering people toward BP/W. In some cases that is great advice in other cases not so much.

I switch back and forth between a BP/W and a a Zeagle Ranger/Brigade all the time. My observations are that one is better in cold water with thick exposure protection and significant weight, and the other is better in warm water with little exposure protection and insignificant weight.

I've been diving a BP/W with doubles for a long time. The rig is adjusted perfectly. Same rig when I switch to a single tank and wing. Its still not as easy to get into and out of as compared to the Ranger. There is no way around feeling steel pressed against your back when you need to hike a ways with the gear on your back. Its fine in the water.

If the dive trip involves Lake Superior, Vancouver Island, or Colorado Mountain Lakes, I reach for my BP/W. On the other hand, my wife and I are headed to Saba next month and I will be bringing my Ranger/Brigade and she's bringing her Zena. That is what we prefer.:blinking:

 

[Crush]

I am a bit surprised by negative reactions to Divedoggie's post. To me his post seemed balanced and reasonable. Then again, this is SB, so I should not be surprised.

From my extremely limited experience I have not seen any huge differences between my BP/w and my Zeagle Scout (see http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/bu...weight-systems/353072-bp-harness-sliding.html) for diving a single tank.

Yes, I have only five dives on the BP/w (compared to only 70 total lifetime dives) so it is very possible that my opinion might change. Be sure to mention this in your critical posts.

 

[Divedoggie]

I am a bit surprised by negative reactions to Divedoggie's post. To me his post seemed balanced and reasonable. Then again, this is SB, so I should not be surprised.

From my extremely limited experience I have not seen any huge differences between my BP/w and my Zeagle Scout (see http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/bu...weight-systems/353072-bp-harness-sliding.html) for diving a single tank.

Yes, I have only five dives on the BP/w (compared to only 70 total lifetime dives) so it is very possible that my opinion might change. Be sure to mention this in your critical posts.

I didn't see your thread earlier. Thanks for linking to it and for commenting on your experiences so far.

 

[cool_hardware52]

The thread isn't a negative reaction to the BP/W users(I am one) In fact most of my comment was positive. However, thread after thread of people inquiring about which new BC to buy ends up strongly steering people toward BP/W. In some cases that is great advice in other cases not so much.

Strongly steering? Some sort of BP&W mind control:shocked2:?

What I see is divers reporting their success with a given style of gear.

How is that any different from your one anecdotal report that Jackets are better for warm water?

I switch back and forth between a BP/W and a a Zeagle Ranger/Brigade all the time. My observations are that one is better in cold water with thick exposure protection and significant weight, and the other is better in warm water with little exposure protection and insignificant weight.

A fair number of our customers dive cold water at home and travel to warm water. Routinely these folks find that with a 3mm wetsuit and al 80 all the ballast they need is a Stainless Steel back plate, harness and regulator. No weight belt, no weight pockets, just a very simple BP&W. How is this "inferior"?

I've been diving a BP/W with doubles for a long time. The rig is adjusted perfectly. Same rig when I switch to a single tank and wing.

Humm, My singles rigs and doubles rigs are adjusted differently. Why? Because a back plate fits the diver differently when using doubles. With doubles the cylinders are closer to the diver and in fact the lower edge of the back plate often does not contact the diver at all, because the cylinders first hit the diver in the butt. This not true with a single cylinder.

Its still not as easy to get into and out of as compared to the Ranger.

If you are struggling to don and doff I'd again suggest the rig is not ideally adjusted.

There is no way around feeling steel pressed against your back when you need to hike a ways with the gear on your back.

A properly sized and properly fit back plate is not uncomfortable for the vast majority of users.

When I'm waddling into the surf here in SoCal after hiking across the parking lot, down the stairs and across the beach I often have ~120lbs + of gear on. Even with this load the plate is not "pressed" into my back. I'm not superman. I am glad when I get in the water because the load on my 51 year old shoulders gets tiring.

A single tank warm water diver simply is typically not carrying a very heavy load, maybe 50 lbs.

If the dive trip involves Lake Superior, Vancouver Island, or Colorado Mountain Lakes, I reach for my BP/W. On the other hand, my wife and I are headed to Saba next month and I will be bringing my Ranger/Brigade and she's bringing her Zena. That is what we prefer.:blinking:

Again, dive what ever you like. Recommend whatever you prefer, but know that your anecdotal experience is just that, anecdotal.

The fact remains that most divers are diving in warm water. That includes majority of DSS customers too.

If these divers routinely found their BP&W to be uncomfortable, and without advantage I'd hear about it, and it would be a common topic on all the dive forums.


Tobin

 

[danvolker]

I am a bit surprised by negative reactions to Divedoggie's post. To me his post seemed balanced and reasonable. Then again, this is SB, so I should not be surprised.

From my extremely limited experience I have not seen any huge differences between my BP/w and my Zeagle Scout (see http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/bu...weight-systems/353072-bp-harness-sliding.html) for diving a single tank.

Yes, I have only five dives on the BP/w (compared to only 70 total lifetime dives) so it is very possible that my opinion might change. Be sure to mention this in your critical posts.

My first question to you, would be "Who" set up yoyr BP/wing for you?
While a person can follow internet directions on doing this, a shop or long time DIR diver skilled in this, will most likely make your set up feel quite different than what you would accomplish for yourself.

This is one of those issues where saving money by doing it yourself is not a good thing....you should read and "know" about what the skilled person has done in fitting you, but for the first few months of using the bp/wing, I would say having someone like Tobin settiong this up for you would be essential.
Regards,
DanV

 

[Crush]

My first question to you, would be "Who" set up yoyr BP/wing for you?

Me. I read a lot on SB and other places.

While a person can follow internet directions on doing this, a shop or long time DIR diver skilled in this, will most likely make your set up feel quite different than what you would accomplish for yourself.

This is one of those issues where saving money by doing it yourself is not a good thing....you should read and "know" about what the skilled person has done in fitting you, but for the first few months of using the bp/wing, I would say having someone like Tobin settiong this up for you would be essential.
Regards,
DanV

I am sure that you are right. However, no one showed me how to set up my Zeagle Scout either. I suppose that you could argue that I am missing out on some Zeagle experience since a ZIR diver hasn't helped me set it up.

Some divers (like TSandM and Devon Diver) have suggested that after many more BP/w I might see the difference - I am willing to try, and we'll see if they are right. Others assume since I did not see fat little children with golden wings float down from the heavens when I donned the BP/w that I must be doing something wrong (Tobin had a very good sense of humour about this, suggesting that cherubs were reserved for DSS divers). To those divers I would ask first "have you ever dived a Zeagle Scout?" If no, then how can you judge how different this experience might or might not be from a BP/w?

Could I have set up my rig incorrectly? It is possible, but I doubt it. Could it be that my BP experience is similar to my BC experience because, for singles, my minimalist rear-inflate BC is very similar to my BP? Entirely likely. If you haven't tried both, how can you comment?

I'll keep at the BP and see how I feel in a few more months.