DevonDiver
N/A
This topic does come up occasionally. I put my thoughts into an article: How to Dive with 'Insta-Buddies' - Scuba Tech Philippines
Challenging Poor Buddy Skills -
- Thread starter Phil_C
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mala
Contributor
some buddies care and some don't.
its a mind-set sort of thing.
even a new diver who can be bothered to glance your way every now and again is better than a dive god who is only concerned with themselves.
all you can do is either find a good buddy who you can bond with or get set -up for solo diving so it doent matter.
2p
its a mind-set sort of thing.
even a new diver who can be bothered to glance your way every now and again is better than a dive god who is only concerned with themselves.
all you can do is either find a good buddy who you can bond with or get set -up for solo diving so it doent matter.
2p
Foxfish
Contributor
Doing pre-dive check with buddy today. Me: What is your tank pressure. Buddy: 190, reading off the angle from compass. She was blonde.
It takes confidence to put your foot down, but hopefully everyone can more easily find confidence if they realize that not insisting on "slow down", "no deeper", "not inside" or "up"/"up NOW" is going to make they significantly less safe.
I think safety is greatly linked to staying in a situation that allows you to be calm and comfortable. If you go along and do something you really don't want to do, you will be stressed and your situational awareness and SAC will suffer. If going along means you redline your gas supplies, allow yourself to get winded or risk getting lost you're now looking at genuinely unhappy scenarios.
Give yourself permission to be assertive and not get pushed into something that makes you stressed or unhappy. Allow yourself to occationally be a wet blanket: learn and review predive also the less well-known signals like "slow down", "stay together" and "stay on this level". When paired with a hard-core swimmer you may have to just let the fool leave you behind. You're better off alone and otherwise OK than stressed, winded and maybe left behind anyway. If he never looks back or cares that you're not with him he would have been a useless buddy at any proximity. Diving is supposed to be fun & you should do what you can to make it so, even if you step on some toes.
TS&M: I've often thought how dive social politics is a lot easier for me exactly in that my husband doesn't dive ;-)
I think safety is greatly linked to staying in a situation that allows you to be calm and comfortable. If you go along and do something you really don't want to do, you will be stressed and your situational awareness and SAC will suffer. If going along means you redline your gas supplies, allow yourself to get winded or risk getting lost you're now looking at genuinely unhappy scenarios.
Give yourself permission to be assertive and not get pushed into something that makes you stressed or unhappy. Allow yourself to occationally be a wet blanket: learn and review predive also the less well-known signals like "slow down", "stay together" and "stay on this level". When paired with a hard-core swimmer you may have to just let the fool leave you behind. You're better off alone and otherwise OK than stressed, winded and maybe left behind anyway. If he never looks back or cares that you're not with him he would have been a useless buddy at any proximity. Diving is supposed to be fun & you should do what you can to make it so, even if you step on some toes.
TS&M: I've often thought how dive social politics is a lot easier for me exactly in that my husband doesn't dive ;-)
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Simple appearing questions but the answers are not at all simple! Has it happened to me? Heck yeah, I think it has happened to pretty well every diver at some point.
1/ - "How do I confront an 'experienced' buddy about their behaviour"
Short answer .. BADLY unless it was something I saw as imminently unsafe or dangerous. I have always believed that people don't have a right to demand others change to conform to their standards. I have also always said life is about choices. People have a right to make their own choices and receive the rewards or consequences of their choices.
In the last while I have come to realize that these two fundamental principles that I have always lived by are just too simplistic! Sometimes the choices other people make have such a potential for negative impact on us that we do have a right to restrict their choices, to demand that they change to conform to our standards. Sometime their choices endanger us to the point where their right to make those choices must be challenged. I think that is certainly the case when it comes to dive buddies.
TSandM implied another factor that has influenced me as well. The pre-existing relationship. On the surface the close relationship ie with a diving spouse makes things more complex. This hasn't been the case for me as my dive buddy/hubby and I dive very well together. It has been the case with friends tho. I believe that sometimes we are just too reluctant to forcefully confront friends. I will admit it is easier for me to "stand up" to an instabuddy or someone whose opinion doesn't matter that much to me. I certainly find it easier to insist on certain behaviour from less experienced buddies than more experienced ones. Perhaps it has to do with feeling that I am not Qualified to questions them
2/ - "What can I do if the experienced diver is not open to feedback"
When the other diver has not been open to feedback in the past I have altered the way I dived to conform to them. That means as many have mentioned I wind up sacrificing my dive to keep an eye on them. We have a group of experienced divers who dive regularly together. Some will say.. when I am ready I will just turn around and go to the exit on my own. I have never been comfortable with this so I will just indicate that I am ready to turn around anyway and go with them if they are my buddy or we are team diving. People have said I am too paranoid about it but my answer has always been "Anybody can have a gear failure or an unexpected medical event". I need to and will be more forceful in the future about my expectations in this regard.
We have had people join our group and basically be told they were not welcome to dive with our group because they didn't follow buddy procedures. There is a local non shop affiliated dive group here we were planning on joining until we were told the policy was that your buddy would not turn the dive for you. I have never been comfortable with that and never will be.
3/ - "How do I, as an experienced diver, remain open to feedback from my buddies"
I am open to feedback from other divers. Possibly too much in the past. I have perhaps been too concerned about everyone getting the most out of the dive so I am more likely to compromise what I want as long as it doesn't relate to safety.
I have definitely set a personal goal of being more forceful and clear in communicating my expectations from any future dive buddies. We need to come to an agreement that is acceptable to everyone in the dive or not dive together.
Darnold9999
Contributor
I am one of those divers, so thought I would give my perspective to this discussion.
I carry a camera, dive excruciatingly slowly and abandon a "group dive" at the first opportunity.
IF I agree to be your buddy we will have a conversation at the beginning of the dive and I will keep in touch with you and be a good buddy, BUT if I don't agree and you just assume because we are the only single divers on the boat we are buddies then I will be that diver. What I won't do is confront a guide and demand to dive alone. Much more passive and just abandon the group. On this I have found it far more successful to ask for forgiveness than permission.
If you confront me after the dive I will say thank you but I am diving alone, if you want to dive with me then here are the rules. The rules are simple, I dive really slowly, you are welcome to join me at that pace - if you swim off I will let you. If you are not careful re stirring up the bottom then I will not dive with you again. Otherwise lets have fun. Works for some - does not work for many others.
Last couple of dives were a great example of what I hate about diving these days.
6 divers on the boat was to be a more "advanced site" with experienced divers. I thought I had made it clear to the operator that I was diving solo but it was clear that that information had not been passed on to the guide. This briefing was jump in follow me - we will do several trips around the tug (small 30 foot wreck) until I see you are bored then swim over to the reef which is out of view of the tug, drop a marker, then swim down the reef and then back to the marker returning to the tug and back up the anchor line. Follow me in single file and don't get lost, don't go deeper than me because we might go into deco. (The deepest we went on the dive and the one following was 57 feet) The group did three trips around the wreck, I barely made it half way around the wreck before they headed off to the reef. I rejoined the group to see where the marker was. Followed behind and watched them swim away. They came back 20 minutes later and I rejoined to swim back to the marker and the tug. The entire dive the guide was swimming at a good pace. This was a tour the reef dive. I came back excited to have found an octopus, a shark and a few other moderately interesting things, they saw reef fish and topography. Guide was not happy with me, but did not say anything.
Second dive was the same experience. Only it was a reef dive on a current swept reef, lots to see and poke into. Dive guide went around the reef in a giant circle 10 feet off the bottom, twice - same track each time no stopping. I stayed inside the circle and poked around. At one point he got quite upset that the group was starting to rebel and stop and poke around and not stay together. Banged his tank and gathered everyone together and swam off again.
I had a great dive, I suspect to everyone else on the dive I was one of "those divers".
If I were to go back and dive with this operation again I would have to be more clear in advance with the guide that I would not be playing follow the leader.
Let the flames begin.
I carry a camera, dive excruciatingly slowly and abandon a "group dive" at the first opportunity.
IF I agree to be your buddy we will have a conversation at the beginning of the dive and I will keep in touch with you and be a good buddy, BUT if I don't agree and you just assume because we are the only single divers on the boat we are buddies then I will be that diver. What I won't do is confront a guide and demand to dive alone. Much more passive and just abandon the group. On this I have found it far more successful to ask for forgiveness than permission.
If you confront me after the dive I will say thank you but I am diving alone, if you want to dive with me then here are the rules. The rules are simple, I dive really slowly, you are welcome to join me at that pace - if you swim off I will let you. If you are not careful re stirring up the bottom then I will not dive with you again. Otherwise lets have fun. Works for some - does not work for many others.
Last couple of dives were a great example of what I hate about diving these days.
6 divers on the boat was to be a more "advanced site" with experienced divers. I thought I had made it clear to the operator that I was diving solo but it was clear that that information had not been passed on to the guide. This briefing was jump in follow me - we will do several trips around the tug (small 30 foot wreck) until I see you are bored then swim over to the reef which is out of view of the tug, drop a marker, then swim down the reef and then back to the marker returning to the tug and back up the anchor line. Follow me in single file and don't get lost, don't go deeper than me because we might go into deco. (The deepest we went on the dive and the one following was 57 feet) The group did three trips around the wreck, I barely made it half way around the wreck before they headed off to the reef. I rejoined the group to see where the marker was. Followed behind and watched them swim away. They came back 20 minutes later and I rejoined to swim back to the marker and the tug. The entire dive the guide was swimming at a good pace. This was a tour the reef dive. I came back excited to have found an octopus, a shark and a few other moderately interesting things, they saw reef fish and topography. Guide was not happy with me, but did not say anything.
Second dive was the same experience. Only it was a reef dive on a current swept reef, lots to see and poke into. Dive guide went around the reef in a giant circle 10 feet off the bottom, twice - same track each time no stopping. I stayed inside the circle and poked around. At one point he got quite upset that the group was starting to rebel and stop and poke around and not stay together. Banged his tank and gathered everyone together and swam off again.
I had a great dive, I suspect to everyone else on the dive I was one of "those divers".
If I were to go back and dive with this operation again I would have to be more clear in advance with the guide that I would not be playing follow the leader.
Let the flames begin.
Bob DBF
Contributor
1/ - Unless the other diver is doing something that can put me in a jackpot, there is no reason to confront them, there are a lot of different ways to dive. Talk over the dive, if you can't agree on a new dive plan that suits you both, just move on.
2/ - Find another buddy, or in my case, the option of same ocean buddy or solo are also available. If you think you are in the business of making someone dive the way you want them to, get an instructor's ticket and get paid for the trouble.
3/ - I'll listen if it's between the two of us, because I know I have habits diving with regular buddies and solo, and I may have to be reminded that it is our dive and we should have a different plan. Start a big confrontation on the boat deck and you never know where it might lead, however I'm sure it won't lead to diving with you afterwards.
Bob
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You can't change somebody who doesn't want to change. In the case of dive buddies, whether experienced or not, you have to find a way to help them decide that what they're doing isn't in their best interest. Then, and only then, can you begin to discuss ways to make changes that improve the buddy dynamic.
Barring that, wish them well and refuse to dive with them again ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Barring that, wish them well and refuse to dive with them again ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
adurso
Contributor
I think this is a really good question, because these problems do come up.
During a dive, if someone just isn't paying attention or isn't making an effort to "stay found", I have been known to abandon my own purposes for the dive and just decide to stick to the person like a burr. As long as they don't totally outswim me, I'm pretty good at it. It's annoying, and were I going to dive with the person again, it would need discussion. However, deliberately leaving the team is one of the few "I don't want to dive with you again" things in my book.
But there are other things, like buddies who don't want to do pre-dive checks, or who keep turning their fins into your face, or otherwise make the dive uncomfortable or unhappy. I always try to start the discussion by asking, "How did that go for you? Anything you'd like me to do differently next time?" That's a reasonable opening to make it a two-way street, although some divers are more open to critique than others. I'm lucky that I mostly dive in a group where debriefing is part of the culture, which helps.
But if anyone has any tips on how to debrief dive problems with a buddy who is also your HUSBAND, please let me know!
Or a wife.....
My wife likes to zoom about and take quick glimpses of things, I like to take my time and take (poor) pictures of things.
We discuss this before each dive.
Then she zooms off when something catches her eye.
If I want to be sure she is nearby I use a jon line
I think this is a really good question, because these problems do come up.
But if anyone has any tips on how to debrief dive problems with a buddy who is also your HUSBAND, please let me know!
I used to start discussions with my bride/buddy with "I'll tell you damn one thing...."
Feel free to try it, and be sure to let us know how it works out for you.
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