Challenging Poor Buddy Skills -

[beaverdivers]

But if anyone has any tips on how to debrief dive problems with a buddy who is also your HUSBAND, please let me know!

It can be difficult. In our situation, my WIFE who is very independent, a solo diver with a camera is diving with a solo diver with a camera. We are always diving solo and sometimes together.

As far as debriefing, remember your BUDDY is ALWAY RIGHT.

 

[tdtaylor]

Interesting point about spouses. I frequently dive with three other "pairs." Two of the pair often appear they are doing synchronized swimming- wonderful to watch. In both these pairs, they each have very different diving personalities, hard core vs. more leisurely, but they come together beautifully when they dive. The third pair is likewise very different personality wise, and it often shows in their diving. Underwater arguments can be entertaining, from a CERTAIN point of view.

I have to say diving with my daughter is very relaxing and we really don't need much communication to understand each other. While we are different personalities, these get put aside when we dive. Of course, during 70 dives together, a buddy pair can develop some definite skills together.

OTOH, my wife does not dive, so when we travel without a group I am also an insta-buddy, and in my humble opinion, my buddy typically gets the better end of the deal. I have had a string of insta-buddies that talk a good game on the boat, seemed to have their act together, were willing to communicate and plan of the surface, only to get underwater and it becomes less pleasant. Most of the time it is more of an irritant, like they have run out of air and I have over half a tank left, they wander around without any awareness of where I am (somehow I always feel responsible for keeping us together in those situations), or they go racing around (and then run out of air early). And I have rarely found and insta-buddy that can navigate. Not a problem, for one of the specialties I enjoy and teach, but it gets old.

I am fortunate, with our shop, I travel 3-5 times a year, and I would gladly dive any time with almost any of them- the majority were/are my instructors or have been our students.

Terry

 

[TSandM]

I think there is lots of room in the ocean for different kinds of diving. I have friends whose idea of a good time is to get on scooters and zoom around for an hour. They don't see much marine life, but they don't know much about marine life, because it's not what interests them. What they get out of diving baffles me, but they enjoy it. If I were to dive with them, either we wouldn't do that kind of dive, or I'd approach the dive as a "have fun with scooters" dive, and get what I could out of it.

BUT -- if two people agree to be buddies, in MY world, they have agreed to execute a dive that both of them feel comfortable doing. If they don't care if they stay together, that's fine, so long as it's true for both. But the pre-dive discussion should include what each person wants out of the dive, including how they will work as buddies, and complete incompatibilities should be apparent at that point.

It's always better to solve the problems BEFORE you dive. Afterwards, you have defensiveness and blamestorming, and it's hard to stay positive and constructive. I write this, thinking of a debrief of a cave dive a couple of years ago. We had a problem, and when we got out to the parking lot, there was a lot of "whose fault was it", until my beloved cave instructor said, "Stop trying to assign the blame. Focus on what you can do to keep this from happening again." If there was a problem on a dive, first agree on what the problem was, and then talk about how you can prevent it in the future. "You weren't paying attention!" is not a constructive way to start a debrief

 

[Peter Guy]

Poor suffering husband here. OK -- I get it. TSandM and I sometimes have differences of opinion on how a dive should run or how we should do it.

How does one do a debrief with a significant other? CAREFULLY and without malice but understanding that your "innocent comments" may well be received as damned attacks. It isn't that a debrief mustn't be done -- just that it be done very carefully. (TSandM -- you listening? )

For example, instead of saying "I don't like it when you kick me -- stop it." How about trying, "Were you aware that you kicked me?" and then wait for the answer -- which may well surprise you.

 

[gypsyjim]

For example, instead of saying "I don't like it when you kick me -- stop it." How about trying, "Were you aware that you kicked me?" and then wait for the answer -- which may well surprise you.

As in: "Well, you deserved it!"?

One time when I was doing some training, at the end of the dive when we began the debriefing the course director called me over, and asked if I would do him a favor: he pointed to a spot just below his left knee, an asked me to please kick him gently, in that exact spot. I looked at him as if he was joking, but he said he really need this kick, so I relented, and gently kicked him.

He turned to us all and said, "There, now there is not one square inch of my body that someone did not kick on that dive!" While he wounded our feelings, and we all knew he was kidding, his point had been made with humor, and the next time we were all in the water everyone was a lot more aware of their fins, and other divers.

 

[drrich2]

A lot would depend on the type of dive.

1.) Typical warm, tropical high-viz. guided vacation dive. I'm following the guide. You want to dive close to me, that's cool. You want to nudge me and motion for me to swim over with you to look at something? Cool. I'm fairly easy going. But if you swim off, you swim off.

2.) Fairly shallow tropical high-viz. shore dive (such as a Bonaire shore dive) - I dive with people I know, and we stay within maybe 15 feet of each other most of the time, one leads, the other follows, sometimes shallower to conserve air (I've got a small, lean, athletic buddy to keep up with). But if doing that kind of dive with somebody else, where I'm confident in my ability to deal with situations and could do a CESA if needed, I'm unlikely to scold somebody much for swimming off, etc... Basically, it's a dive where I don't figure I need the buddy, so I don't try to control what they do (at least in theory).

3.) Unguided challenging dive where CESA is unwise, or navigation important. I'm not good at navigation. Making a CESA from greater depth, particularly after being down awhile and getting pretty nitrogen loaded, to a surface with substantial waves at an unknown distance and direction from a boat, is more hazardous. In such a situation, I'd be more dependent on my buddy to mitigate serious risk.

I imagine my philosophy reads like 'It's all about me,' but that's not my intent. Similar to a view an earlier poster alluded to, I don't believe I have a right to dictate how somebody else dives, unless that person is a minor under my care, or has a responsibility to me.

I recognize an obligation to try to stay with a buddy on an unguided dive (on a guided dive, if I'm with the guide, I'm where I'm supposed to be; you should be, too. I still check for you occasionally). But if the other person keeps swimming off, a newbie I'd probably try talking to, and a seasoned diver I'd classify as 'same day, same ocean' and decide whether I was willing to dive on those terms, rather than fuss at them.

Richard.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[DaleC]

I also think that we sometimes think we know how to dive and have a problem when we encounter someone who dives differently.

Before I learned better I thought buddy diving was follow the leader, single file style. I would have been confused by someone who wanted to swim beside me. It might have seemed we couldn't decide who was leading the dive or perhaps they lacked confidence to be in front when, in fact, they had a different way to dive. Now I annoy new divers who insist on swimming behind me by stopping and pointing to the space beside - some just can't get it even when it is discussed pre-dive.

I remember when I first started videoing; being above my buddy taking a great shot of them looking at a swimming Nudi. Then I saw them looking all around.. for me, but I was directly above and out of eye sight. Bad buddy? No. My intentions were good but I was still learning how shooting video could impact a buddy dive.

I also remember doing my first dives with a technically oriented diver. Up until then I had mainly been with instructor types who tended to babysit me during the pre-dive or other new divers. This person was very pragmatic and self focused, expecting me to be the same. Perhaps a bit premature but the effect was to inspire me to be more self reliant and responsible for myself. I saw a different way of diving and I liked it but I knew I had some catching up to do.

Imagine me reaming him out for not diving my way. Instead I watched and learned and perhaps because of that he realized an opportunity to teach and dialed his independence down a bit.

Nothing makes an experienced diver pay attention to a newer diver more than the feeling that their buddy is interested in what they are doing.

Of course some divers are dicks. Probably proportional to every other activity. Not much to be learned from them I suppose. But some divers may have a lot of experience and, as a result, have become quite comfortable doing things a certain way. In that case, perhaps it is I who has to learn to change and adapt to a new way of doing things.

 

[Subcooled]

1/ - "How do I confront an 'experienced' buddy about their behaviour"
2/ - "What can I do if the experienced diver is not open to feedback"
3/ - "How do I, as an experienced diver, remain open to feedback from my buddies"

Phil

People don't like those that judge other people.
(and believe me, I have judged, and not always fairly)

Instead, speak of your fear(s):

You feel unsafe and lonely (ok don't exaggerate; nobody wants a trust-me-dive) and would be happier if the more experienced diver would stay closer to you and provide his/her reassuring presence and help. Do this PRIOR to the dive. Take the time. It is worth it. This way you give him/her a possibility to be the good person. Not the bad. I have told to less experienced divers that I feel safer if they stay close. And I have asked them to look after me if I do something immensely stupid. Now, I am not the most experienced diver in the world, and some people are even less experienced, and I admitted that I (200+ dives) may need the help of someone who is on their fift dive. A little bit of breathhold shoud make anyone without gills humble.

If the other diver is not open to feedback and you feel unsafe with him/her, then try to find a better buddy. There should be some sort of emotional contact between you. Same values, same goals, same risk level, something... I have felt safest and most happy when diving - not with tech/ultimate guys, but with those that share my view of safety and procedures. Safety is not just about skill (certification cards), but it is also about shared attitudes, good feel, beeing relaxed, unhurried, no peer pressure... I've almost got me killed with tech guys (because of peer pressure). On the other hand, I've done some quite advanced and well planned technical dives (overhead, low viz, deco, stage/deco gas, freezing conditions) with a certified rescue diver. Not all facts are written on plastic.

One good way is to publicly announce all your failures and stupid mistakes. This leads to an atmosphere where other people in your club / team / ... also openly admit their mistakes. Suddenly you realize that we all make mistakes and there is no need to feel ashamed. Then you can discuss these, learn from others mistakes, and have a good laugh. I think it's healthy. If, on the other hand, everyone pretends to be without fault, the mistakes are hidden. It is easier to remain open to feedback if there is no negative social impact involved.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Poor suffering husband here. OK -- I get it. TSandM and I sometimes have differences of opinion on how a dive should run or how we should do it.

How does one do a debrief with a significant other? CAREFULLY and without malice but understanding that your "innocent comments" may well be received as damned attacks. It isn't that a debrief mustn't be done -- just that it be done very carefully. (TSandM -- you listening? )

For example, instead of saying "I don't like it when you kick me -- stop it." How about trying, "Were you aware that you kicked me?" and then wait for the answer -- which may well surprise you.

Couples make for interesting diving dynamics ... I'm speaking as someone who's spent virtually my entire diving years with a wife (and for the past decade ex-wife) as a dive buddy. Spouses don't hear what you say the way other dive buddies do ... they hear through a relationship translator, and that often makes the message say things you don't realize it's saying.

My current two AOW classes consist of married couples ... which gets interesting at times because the class curriculum is so buddy-intensive. Makes me feel like a referee at times. But it's gratifying ... as it was today ... when I see them progress to the point where they can dive together without arguing anymore ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added November 16th, 2013 at 03:20 PM ----------

As in: "Well, you deserved it!"?

One time when I was doing some training, at the end of the dive when we began the debriefing the course director called me over, and asked if I would do him a favor: he pointed to a spot just below his left knee, an asked me to please kick him gently, in that exact spot. I looked at him as if he was joking, but he said he really need this kick, so I relented, and gently kicked him.

He turned to us all and said, "There, now there is not one square inch of my body that someone did not kick on that dive!" While he wounded our feelings, and we all knew he was kidding, his point had been made with humor, and the next time we were all in the water everyone was a lot more aware of their fins, and other divers.

There's an important point to be made here.

If your dive buddy is kicking you, the chances are pretty good that it's because YOU are not where you're supposed to be. If you were properly positioned, they wouldn't be kicking you. And if you're an instructor complaining about being kicked, that says more about you than it does about your students ... you're supposed to be skilled enough to be able to position yourself where that won't happen.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[gypsyjim]

Couples make for interesting diving dynamics ... I'm speaking as someone who's spent virtually my entire diving years with a wife (and for the past decade ex-wife) as a dive buddy. Spouses don't hear what you say the way other dive buddies do ... they hear through a relationship translator, and that often makes the message say things you don't realize it's saying.

My current two AOW classes consist of married couples ... which gets interesting at times because the class curriculum is so buddy-intensive. Makes me feel like a referee at times. But it's gratifying ... as it was today ... when I see them progress to the point where they can dive together without arguing anymore ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added November 16th, 2013 at 03:20 PM ----------



There's an important point to be made here.

If your dive buddy is kicking you, the chances are pretty good that it's because YOU are not where you're supposed to be. If you were properly positioned, they wouldn't be kicking you. And if you're an instructor complaining about being kicked, that says more about you than it does about your students ... you're supposed to be skilled enough to be able to position yourself where that won't happen.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

While I get along pretty well with the X (the long bitter war has long since ended in a truce that has held even after the kids have grown up) I could not imagine having her as a dive buddy.

THAT would make for truly interesting dynamics.