Donation of primary or secondary?

[boulderjohn]

This particular back and forth makes me ask the question: which system do you wish your buddy was using?

That's something of a loaded question with me as the potential donee. I do a lot of technical diving, and I know my buddies on those dives will be using the same system I use. On recreational, single-tank dives, I would prefer that they use the same system, but I am so very confident that I am not going to need it that it does not worry me all that much, so I don't really care. I do a lot of insta-buddy diving in recreational diving, so I am used to using whatever they have.

 

[TMHeimer]

With proper training and familiar gear, one never has to search for their octo.

Just sayin'.

Yes. This gets me thinking a bit. As most of my dives are solo, I tuck my "golden triangle" octo under my front BC strap. I am almost always right near sandy bottoms hunting shells, flounders, etc. and this assures me of no sand or other stuff entering the octo--something I know exactly where it is and should never need it solo anyway. I don't do this the odd time once yearly or so when I take a charter and have a buddy. My thought is next buddy dive I will tell the buddy I will donate my primary and use the octo myself....I just wouldn't be used to grabbing it from it's normal position. Another reason to consider primary first I guess.

 

[Bogtrotter]

I see the logic in donating the primary, at least for experienced divers. However I would be hesitant to encourage new or infrequent divers to take out their primary in an urgent OOA situation, particularly when the secondary will accomplish the exact same thing. After all it should be checked and be good to go in the predive- simply grab and purge ready to be received. I suspect in these very rare instances it is probably the recipient, likely in a near-panicked state, that is going to make that decision.

 

[tbone1004]

I see the logic in donating the primary, at least for experienced divers. However I would be hesitant to encourage new or infrequent divers to take out their primary in an urgent OOA situation, particularly when the secondary will accomplish the exact same thing. After all it should be checked and be good to go in the predive- simply grab and purge ready to be received. I suspect in these very rare instances it is probably the recipient, likely in a near-panicked state, that is going to make that decision.

we teach our students primary donate from day 1 and the program has been for longer than I've been alive. If you plan for secondary donate/take you are planning for the best and hoping for the best. What happens if that reg gets taken from their mouth or kick out of their mouth and they have to fumble to find something that is breathable? Not good.

 

[Neilwood]

we teach our students primary donate from day 1 and the program has been for longer than I've been alive. If you plan for secondary donate/take you are planning for the best and hoping for the best. What happens if that reg gets taken from their mouth or kick out of their mouth and they have to fumble to find something that is breathable? Not good.

If we are talking about basic scuba which we should be in here, then the person should do what they have been trained to do. If the diver is sticking to training and doing a proper air check then both regs have been checked for breathing, the secondary is located properly (and properly secured) and the plan has been discussed prior to diving.

For a new diver using a jacket BCD a long hose would be a nightmare - where do you stow it? The reality is most new divers (now and for the foreseeable future) will be using a jacket.

Long hose makes sense for tech divers where different gases are being used or there is a need for a "stand off" distance due to single file exits

Using arguments like getting the reg kicked away or using the wrong gas are (for basic scuba) a non sequitur. What happens if the long hose is kicked out of the donators hand? Same issue, longer hose so harder to find if it is lost. The diver is only using one gas which should be breathable the entire dive.

 

[tbone1004]

@Neilwood arguments against primary donate because of jacket bcd's are invalid because the essentially sole market of AirII's is on jacket bc's. AirII's require primary donate, ipso facto, primary donate is compatible with jacket bc's.
Note that I never said anything about long hose, I said primary donate. That can be done with a 36" hose that does not have an elbow on it which is what we use in the pool and what GUE used in single hose configurations until a few years ago.
40" hoses with elbows don't "stow" anywhere, they just chill out under your arm pit. It's an issue.

regs getting kicked out of your mouth happen much more often in "basic scuba" than they do in technical diving due to a myriad of reasons. With a long hose, they tend to be easier to find because with 5' and 7' hoses they just stay in front of your face because they are routed behind your neck. With primary donate though, no matter what you are using, the secondary is just under your chin.

MOST "basic scuba" divers can't reach their valve to properly find the regulator hoses because they have their valves way too low. If you can't reach and have a short primary, if it gets kicked out it can easily go behind you where you can't reach it without doing a bit of body position adjustment. At the same time, you have to trust that your secondary hasn't come out of whatever octo holder is being used vs just looking down and having it right there.

edit'd to be a bit less of a jacka$$, rough morning at work

 

[AJ]

For a new diver using a jacket BCD a long hose would be a nightmare - where do you stow it? The reality is most new divers (now and for the foreseeable future) will be using a jacket.

A long hose can be a litlte bit shorter than 2.1 mtr. For instance 1.5 mtr. You don't have to stow that. But otherwise, I agree with your post. Do as you are trained. In rec diving all the gas you have with you is breathable all the time. No real need for long hoses, even primary donation, etc. except if you are trained that way which I was from the beginning.

 

[tbone1004]

A long hose can be a litlte bit shorter than 2.1 mtr. For instance 1.5 mtr. You don't have to stow that. But otherwise, I agree with your post. Do as you are trained. In rec diving all the gas you have with you is breathable all the time. No real need for long hoses, even primary donation, etc. except if you are trained that way which I was from the beginning.

so now "because we always did it that way" is now an acceptable excuse for not adopting "best practices"?

 

[Neilwood]

@Neilwood arguments against primary donate because of jacket bcd's are bullsh!t because of the use of Air2's. Not that I never said anything about long hose, I said primary donate. That can be done with a 36" hose that does not have an elbow on it which is what we use in the pool and what GUE used in single hose configurations until a few years ago.
40" hoses with elbows don't "stow" anywhere, they just chill out under your arm pit. It's an issue.

regs getting kicked out of your mouth happen much more often in "basic scuba" than they do in technical diving due to a myriad of reasons. With a long hose, they tend to be easier to find because with 5' and 7' hoses they just stay in front of your face because they are routed behind your neck. With primary donate though, no matter what you are using, the secondary is just under your chin.

MOST "basic scuba" divers can't reach their valve to properly find the regulator hoses because they have their valves way too low. If you can't reach and have a short primary, if it gets kicked out it can easily go behind you where you can't reach it without doing a bit of body position adjustment. At the same time, you have to trust that your secondary hasn't come out of whatever octo holder is being used vs just looking down and having it right there.

At the end of the day, the success and failure of both systems comes down to training and following that training - that is the crux of my point.

I am sure you will agree that if divers using either system are not doing it correctly(as per training), are failing to brief properly (ie doing a proper check on both regs and discussing air shares) or are failing to properly check their equipment is working and stowed correctly then we are heading for a CF.

 

[boulderjohn]

At the end of the day, the success and failure of both systems comes down to training and following that training - that is the crux of my point.

I am sure you will agree that if divers using either system are not doing it correctly(as per training), are failing to brief properly (ie doing a proper check on both regs and discussing air shares) or are failing to properly check their equipment is working and stowed correctly then we are heading for a CF.

I have asked this question several times in several forms, and no one seems inclined to respond to it.

What do you do when the OOA diver does not act according to the way YOU were trained? It seems to me that the OOA diver will usually determine what happens. If he or she signals and waits patiently for you to respond, you get to follow your training. If not, you have to react to whatever that diver is doing.