Donation of primary or secondary?

[MaxBottomtime]

Too many are looking at this the wrong way. Knowing that your primary is working does not mean that you think your backup may not be. It's simply that you want the OOA diver to get air immediately and you give them a reg that you just took a breath from. Odds are that your backup is perfectly fine but it may need to be purged or may not breathe as easily as your primary. Any number of reasons why it could not be as good as your primary but that doesn't mean it won't be working.

The idea of primary donate is to get air to the victim as quickly as possible. The donor is not starving for air and therefore has a few extra seconds to get his backup into his mouth.

 

[AJ]

For divers with the LH/SH configuration, is there any known incidents where a diver test breathed both regs, but when donating the primary, the reg on the short hose failed?

The reason for donating the primary in tech diving is because you know it is the right gas at that moment (neither hypoxic or hyperoxic). It gives the team/donator time to figure out what to do next in stead off making things worse. In rec diving it does not matter much what you daonat because it will most probably be breathable.

Also every diver should test his/her primary and secondary before setting off. A secondary not working in this scenario is very unlikely.

 

[decompression]

Another point is consistency, why change your method when you change your diving. Start with the end in mind and you'll have muscle memory on your side in a "panic" situation.

 

[boulderjohn]

Asking because people keep saying that they know their primary works, implying (my interpretation) that they are not sure about the backup. Has a backup failed after being tested at the beginning of a dive?

IMO, people make too big a deal of this, and it interferes with the understanding of newer divers trying to make a decision. I base this opinion on my own personal experience.

Quite a few years ago, I was a ScubaBoard participant who had never dived anything except a convention regulator setup with the alternate in the golden triangle. I had never even seen a long hose setup, so I had only what I read on ScubaBoard to guide my decision making. People kept saying over and over that donating the primary meant that you were sure that you were donating a working regulator. I thought that was ridiculous--I tested my regulators before going into the water, so I was always damned sure my alternate would work when needed. The perceived silliness of the argument made me reject any thoughts of making a change like that, and I was also dismissive of the people who were making those claims, making me less likely to pay attention to anything else they wrote about it.

Then I got technical diving training and had to use the long hose and bungeed alternate. I eventually realized that there are very good and sound reasons to use that system in all my diving, reasons that had nothing to do with knowing the regulator would work when needed. It is for those reasons I think everyone should use that system, not because of the working regulator issue.

For that reason, in discussions like this, I never mention the issue of the working regulator theory, because I think it is a harmful distraction.

 

[Charred]

Having the air2 type inflator makes it obvious that you must donate the primary. I didn't take that into consideration.

This is one topic I never see discussed in the overall discussions over which secondary to donate: Lot's of people do use those Air2s, but most of them do not realize that is their backup and they donate the main. I think many people believe the Air2 replaces the Octo. And they probably only have a 28-32 inch main secondary which makes donation difficult even if they know they donate that reg.

So there is a whole group of people that have switched to primary donate/Air2 backup but don't understand its implementation.

However, I think donating the primary/bungee backup is pretty obvious what is going on.

One other advantage to the bungee backup setup that I never see discussed is the quick availability of of your backup. *I* know where my backup is at all times and can have it in my mouth in a second. In rec groups where someone might kick your reg out of your mouth (don't tell me you don't worry about this happening...) or lose your main in the surge your backup is right there.

FWIW, my whole family and I use the primary donate/bungee backup.

 

[tbone1004]

@wetb4igetinthewater the big one isn't so much the secondary not working, though it is a potential problem with a lot of divers that have their secondary dangling and getting drug through whatever is underneath them *have seen purge buttons no longer function because of this which is dangerous in an OOA scenario*. That said, your secondary being around your neck pretty much eliminates the risk of those types of contaminants getting into the second stage which is icing on the cake for me.

The big one is really that you know your reg in your mouth works, so when you give it to the OOA diver, you know they are getting air so the situation won't escalate. You can take a decent breath and hold your breath for a minute if you have to go into buddy breathing if the secondary doesn't work. That's why we teach "pass and slide" as one motion so you know real fast *i.e. before you release the primary second stage* if the secondary isn't functioning properly so you can take it back if you have to after the OOA diver has calmed down

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The idea of primary donate is to get air to the victim as quickly as possible. The donor is not starving for air and therefore has a few extra seconds to get his backup into his mouth.

That was my reasoning as well.

The reason for donating the primary in tech diving is because you know it is the right gas at that moment (neither hypoxic or hyperoxic). It gives the team/donator time to figure out what to do next in stead off making things worse. In rec diving it does not matter much what you daonat because it will most probably be breathable.

Would you elaborate here? If you donate whatever is in your mouth and your back gas is not appropriate for that depth, what are you as the donor supposed to breath? If this is a stupid question, I haven't yet had coffee.

IMO, people make too big a deal of this, and it interferes with the understanding of newer divers trying to make a decision. I base this opinion on my own personal experience.

<snip>

For that reason, in discussions like this, I never mention the issue of the working regulator theory, because I think it is a harmful distraction.

That's what I was trying to flush out. Saying that your primary is given because it works (functional) is distracting.

 

[boulderjohn]

Would you elaborate here? If you donate whatever is in your mouth and your back gas is not appropriate for that depth, what are you as the donor supposed to breath? If this is a stupid question, I haven't yet had coffee.

The fear of a gas not being appropriate for that depth in tech diving is related to a gas with an inappropriate MOD--too much oxygen. You would not want to be breathing a shallow deco gas at great depth. You can pretty much breathe back gas at any depth. Let's say you are going pretty deep and have only 10% oxygen in your back gas. That would be fatal on the surface, but at 17 feet it would be like breathing regular air at the surface.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The fear of a gas not being appropriate for that depth in tech diving is related to a gas with an inappropriate MOD--too much oxygen. You would not want to be breathing a shallow deco gas at great depth. You can pretty much breathe back gas at any depth. Let's say you are going pretty deep and have only 10% oxygen in your back gas. That would be fatal on the surface, but at 17 feet it would be like breathing regular air at the surface.

John,

That's what threw me off, the hypoxic statement. 10% O2 in the back gas will be fine at 17 feet as you stated. I was thinking more of during the working part of the dive, where one is breathing the back gas. When it comes to deco, then I'd expect the OOG diver to have their back gas to switch to, and then buddy breath their buddy's deco gas that they lost for whatever reason.

 

[Storker]

A few years ago, I was trying out a new (for me, but used) BCD at my regular training site. It happened back when I still used a conventional octo setup. During the ss, we agreed on a drill and my buddy gave me the oog sign. I reached for my octo, but it wasn't where I expected it to be. I reached again, and the darned octo still refused to be there. So, maybe 15 seconds after my buddy slashed his throat to be, I thought "screw it", took a decent breath from my primary and donated it. I knew I had about a minute to find my secondary before shtf. I also knew that if this were a real situation, my buddy would be pretty stressed by now. That was a no-brainer and I located my secondary only a few moments after I'd donated my primary.

So, what's the point of this story? Basically, that if you're relaxed and in control, whether it's secondary donate, secondary take, primary donate or primary grab, it really doesn't matter much if you're in control and comfortable in the water. So whether you prefer primary or secondary donate, it's just a matter of what you've trained for and (hopefully) what you've briefed your buddy for