Donation of primary or secondary?

[tbone1004]

primary unless I'm on a loop of some variety *CCR, SCR, Double Hose* where primary donate is not feasible

 

[Diver0001]

Primary, known to be working with breathable gas.

I would just like to address this point briefly.

There are two things being said here.

1) you KNOW you can breathe the gas the diver right in front of you is breathing.
and
2) you KNOW the regulator being donated is working.

Neither of these points has anything at all to do with the question of which regulator (primary or secondary) is donated.

On #1 the question of whether or not a diver can breathe the gas being donated is absolutely essential in a technical context but in the context here, which is recreational (presumably single tank but certainly single gas) diving, point #1 is moot.

On #2 there is an issue to address here with the quality of pre-dive checks and securing the octopus. In my open water course I teach students to do a "self check'" AND a "buddy check" before getting into the water. In addition, the standards for all of the major agencies include properly securing the octopus where it is not dangling or dragging. (streamlined). So before a diver gets in the water all regulators are checked twice and before we dive everything is secured.

If a diver does these things, (self-check, buddy-check, secure the octopus) then I am comfortable asserting that point #2 is also moot. I'm sure that someone will now jump on this saying that octopus can become dislodged or they will spin some scenario where the octopus is full of sand or whatever, but these discussions are academic. They are interesting for online theory spinning but in practice, if someone does a self-check and a buddy-check, even if the octopus does become dislodged, it will be functioning, even if everyone got tunnel vision, missed the fact that it was dislodged, didn't fix it being dislodged and the octopus somehow got debris in it.

Ergo the assertion "can always breathe it" and "always working" apply equally well REGARDLESS of which regulator the diver donates. In a technical context we have a very different kettle of fish but this discussion is in the basic forum and that's how we should be addressing the question.

R..

 

[boulderjohn]

the standards for all of the major agencies include properly securing the octopus where it is not dangling or dragging. (streamlined). So before a diver gets in the water all regulators are checked twice and before we dive everything is secured.

If a diver does these things, (self-check, buddy-check, secure the octopus) then I am comfortable asserting that point #2 is also moot. I'm sure that someone will now jump on this saying that octopus can become dislodged

The scenario of the alternate become dislodged is not spin. It happens very frequently. When I used that setup, I tried a number of different octopus holders and never found one I was happy with. My alternate came out of its keeper at least once seemingly on every dive, often during a giant stride entry. When teaching OW students in the pool, I learned to check that the alternates were in place before doing an OOA exercise, because often they are not.

I first learned to use a long hose and bungeed alternate in my tech diving training, but I did not bother changing from the common alternate setup on my single tank gear for a long time.I finally changed to using that setup in my single tank gear when I read a story of a woman who drowned when she went OOA, went for her buddy's alternate, found that it was not in its normal place because it had come loose, panicked, and drowned.

 

[GreggS]

On #2 there is an issue to address here with the quality of pre-dive checks and securing the octopus. In my open water course I teach students to do a "self check'" AND a "buddy check" before getting into the water. In addition, the standards for all of the major agencies include properly securing the octopus where it is not dangling or dragging. (streamlined). So before a diver gets in the water all regulators are checked twice and before we dive everything is secured.

If a diver does these things, (self-check, buddy-check, secure the octopus) then I am comfortable asserting that point #2 is also moot. I'm sure that someone will now jump on this saying that octopus can become dislodged or they will spin some scenario where the octopus is full of sand or whatever, but these discussions are academic. They are interesting for online theory spinning but in practice, if someone does a self-check and a buddy-check, even if the octopus does become dislodged, it will be functioning, even if everyone got tunnel vision, missed the fact that it was dislodged, didn't fix it being dislodged and the octopus somehow got debris in it.

R..

^This. Why in the world would someone get into the water if there is any doubt whatsoever whether the secondary is working properly or not. Whether you donate the primary or secondary, one of you could be using a partially or non-working secondary. You may as well not even have one at all. An OOA situation would be stressful enough without having to deal with a shared regulator on the ascent.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think the working/not working issue is unimportant. In fact, I think making it a point to be argued is detrimental. It certainly was for me.

Back before I even ever SAW a long hose/bungeed alternate setup, we used to have these debates on ScubaBoard. There was one long hose advocate in particular who really irked me. For those who remember those days, he was a member of the old (and now nearly completely gone) DIR crowd who used the argumentative strategy of declaring "You're gonna die!" in regard to every contrary practice. In a number of posts, he declared in so many words that ALL traditional alternates drag in the silt and become clogged to the point that they cannot be used on ALL dives, so that a traditional alternate will NEVER work when needed. That was such obvious horse-pucky that it absolutely made me resist any attempt to change my habits, and I began to equate all long-hose advocates with that idiocy. That is the main reason I resisted the change even after I decided that it was a better system.

 

[Diver0001]

The scenario of the alternate become dislodged is not spin. It happens very frequently. When I used that setup, I tried a number of different octopus holders and never found one I was happy with. My alternate came out of its keeper at least once seemingly on every dive, often during a giant stride entry. When teaching OW students in the pool, I learned to check that the alternates were in place before doing an OOA exercise, because often they are not.

I first learned to use a long hose and bungeed alternate in my tech diving training, but I did not bother changing from the common alternate setup on my single tank gear for a long time.I finally changed to using that setup in my single tank gear when I read a story of a woman who drowned when she went OOA, went for her buddy's alternate, found that it was not in its normal place because it had come loose, panicked, and drowned.

Side bar:

I would have never come up with this idea if it weren't for my daughter but the "hair bands" that girls/women with long hair use are the perfect octopus holders. They work much better than any commercial product on the market. My BCD always has several of them attached so I can give them away as needed. The owner of the shop hates me for this (and for recommending baby shampoo instead of expensive "drops" for the mask) but frankly, hair bands were MADE for divers.......

I now pick them up from the bottom of the pool as we are training. I used to ignore them but I now have a pocket full of them and I use them on my own BCD as well. They still occasionally (but rarely) come undone but I find them better than any of the purpose made octopus holders on the market.

Don't tell your LDS though. I suggested to the shop owner that he needed to stock hair bands and baby shampoo and he laughed at me. It all works too well... there's no money to be made on that......

R..

 

[boulderjohn]

A lot of people say that a diver should use whatever approach was in their training. There is an important problem with that concept--the choice is often not yours to make.

If you have a traditional setup with an alternate in the "golden triangle," in many and perhaps most cases the method used in an OOA emergency is determined by the OOA diver, not the donor. If the OOA diver gives the OOA signal and then stares at you expectantly, you get to make the choice. I don't think that is what is most likely to happen, though. In every case I know of, the OOA diver reached for a regulator, often aggressively. I have read cases on ScubaBoard of the OOA diver going for the primary regulator, but in every case I know of personally, the OOA diver went for the alternate. In those cases, there was no signal, and the "donor" only realized the situation when the OOA diver was grasping at the regulator.

If you have the traditional setup, you have to recognize what is happening and make an appropriate reaction. If you don't act appropriately, things can go bad. In my experience doing OW certification dives, I have mostly worked for a shop that separated the pool sessions from the OW dives, so the group of OW students you had to work with had different instructors in the pool. I had to ask the students before the OW dives how they had been taught to do the OOA sequence. Some were taught to let the OOA diver take the alternate. Some had been taught to donate the alternate. When I got a mix on a buddy team, it was usually trouble. I told them to decide what method they would use before the dive, but they usually reverted to their training. When the "alternate take" student was OOA, he or she would reach to take the alternate while the "alternate donate" student was reaching for it to donate. This usually resulted in a fumbled handoff as one hand knocked the regulator out of the other.

If you have a bungeed alternate under the chin or any of the various models of an alternate on the inflator hose, that problem is eliminated.

 

[Russoft]

Without fail, my wife's octo unclips and sails behind her. It doesn't matter how well we clip it off. Short of shoving it in a pocket, it's GOING to drag. I have better luck (when renting regs), perhaps because I regularly check and reclip equipment during a dive.

Regardless, I've already switched my regulators to a bungeed backup and long hose primary, and my wife's regs are soon to follow. Thus I would donate my primary. Not because I don't have confidence in the backup, but because the backup is on a necklace.

 

[Storker]

Without fail, my wife's octo unclips and sails behind her. It doesn't matter how well we clip it off. Short of shoving it in a pocket, it's GOING to drag. I have better luck (when renting regs), perhaps because I regularly check and reclip equipment during a dive.

Bend the octo hose 180 degrees close to the regulator, stuff the loop through the right shoulder D-ring. Problem solved.

Almost every diver with a traditional octo setup whom I've buddied up with around here uses that method. I did it myself before I switched to a LH/BO setup. No issues at all.

 

[Diver0001]

A lot of people say that a diver should use whatever approach was in their training. There is an important problem with that concept--the choice is often not yours to make.

If you have a traditional setup with an alternate in the "golden triangle," in many and perhaps most cases the method used in an OOA emergency is determined by the OOA diver, not the donor. If the OOA diver gives the OOA signal and then stares at you expectantly, you get to make the choice. I don't think that is what is most likely to happen, though. In every case I know of, the OOA diver reached for a regulator, often aggressively. I have read cases on ScubaBoard of the OOA diver going for the primary regulator, but in every case I know of personally, the OOA diver went for the alternate. In those cases, there was no signal, and the "donor" only realized the situation when the OOA diver was grasping at the regulator.

If you have the traditional setup, you have to recognize what is happening and make an appropriate reaction. If you don't act appropriately, things can go bad. In my experience doing OW certification dives, I have mostly worked for a shop that separated the pool sessions from the OW dives, so the group of OW students you had to work with had different instructors in the pool. I had to ask the students before the OW dives how they had been taught to do the OOA sequence. Some were taught to let the OOA diver take the alternate. Some had been taught to donate the alternate. When I got a mix on a buddy team, it was usually trouble. I told them to decide what method they would use before the dive, but they usually reverted to their training. When the "alternate take" student was OOA, he or she would reach to take the alternate while the "alternate donate" student was reaching for it to donate. This usually resulted in a fumbled handoff as one hand knocked the regulator out of the other.

If you have a bungeed alternate under the chin or any of the various models of an alternate on the inflator hose, that problem is eliminated.

John, you're talking about procedure as opposed to configuration.

Regardless of configuration the OOA diver may do something unexpected. Regardless of configuration you may nee to think creatively. Regardless of configuration things may get pear shaped.

What I do in my OW course is the following. It follows from using a trad configuration: Students are trained that the OOA diver gets the attention of the diver with whom they intend to share air...

1) Getting attention must be done with PURPOSE. It must be a touch... or a hit... or a shake... that is intended to get attention because it should never be confused with an "en passant touche"

2) the OOA sign must be exaggerated. If it is not then I will not respond to it. In our local waters it's dark and turbid at depth and something that looks like the hand movements of a rapper won't get a reaction. It needs to be BIG AND CLEAR or it didn't happen at all... that's how I train it.

3) the donor decides which regulator to give. If that's the one in their mouth... perfect. If it's the octopus... perfect... the leading principle is what I call my ABC rule......; A = AIR..... everyone needs air. I don't give a rat's ass where it comes from but everyone needs a working regulator in their mouth..... B = Bouyancy. Once everyone has a working regulator we get back to "DIVING" we are not sinking and we are not floating...... we level out...... C= communication. At the point where everyone has a working regulator and we are all back to diving THEN... and only then... do we decide what to do...... do we try solving the problem? do we ascend and end the dive? what's the plan?

That's the ABC rule.

R..