Got my OW cert, but SOB!

[Xitesmai]

Ummm, so you cant breath into the dump port with the dump button depressed? Same as we do with a standard inflator? May not be pretty or easy, but seems like you ought to be able to. I'll report when mine arrives. On a similar note, I just tested and you can do it - blow air into your top air dump to inflate. So your buddy could do that on the surface (ie lost the boat and dead tank) or I suppose surface BCD remove, inflate and replace. Not pretty, but then again, necessity is the mother of invention...

I knew you could use the dump valve to inflate, but I've never heard of testing the exhaust valves on a integrated Octo to inflate, I'm sure its been attempted/proven/etc somewhere.

 

[flots am]

The downside of integrated Octo/Inflators is the tendency to free-flow given certain diving conditions, and the inability to manually inflate the BC...its a tradeoff.

An integrated inflator is designed and adjusted specifically to not be overly-sensitive and free-flow. If yours free-flows, it needs service.

Manually inflating your BC with an integrated inflater is done exactly the same as with a non-integrated inflater. There is absolutely no difference. If you can't manually inflate your BC with yours, it's broken.

flots.

 

[maniago]

You can and should walk away from this thread with a few things you know you should work on, a good idea of several equipment variations that you should further research on your own, and the knowledge that when the chips were down, you didn't panic and reasoned through your options.

Now, let's go get wet.

Yup, I'm tracking with you! Lets leave this one at the bar and go make some bubbles. Thanks to the Constitution we get to have these discussions and still do it however we want. Glad to finally be able to call myself part of the card carrying club. See you below the surface!

Next dive - Wednesday. Wahoo!

 

[flots am]

@Them - I do get it that the necklace is only for yourself. That's my hang-up. That just doesn't seem survival friendly to me - that is to say, in standard config, both your reg and the octo are available to your buddy to take. In necklace, he/she's only got one choice and thats to compromise your breathing to save his skin. Then you have to save youre skin. One need creates two needs before resolution.

Don't get too hung up on the details. As long as an air-share leaves you with a reg that you're OK breathing on, and something for your buddy, everything else will be OK.

I've never seen an OOA diver complain about the length of the hose they were given.

flots.

 

[dmoore19]

Let me see if I can clarify.

I have heard other divers complaining that integrated octo/inflators tend to freeflow more often than standard regs. Or the buttons get stuck on the integrated systems. As far as manual inflation I mean the following....A BC inflator manually by mouth is using gas that has already been consumed by the body. On an integrated system you are using tank air that never reaches the body, thus its wasted gas...albeit very little of it...but in an emergency every little bit helps.

Not really. I am still mystified by your comment. I have an integrated system. The 2nd stage on it is adjusted so as not to freeflow as easily. Even if it did I could easily disconnect it. I can inflate my BC manually by mouth. Besides, how is the air used in a standard inflator any different than that used by an integrated system? How is a stuck button on an integrated system any different than a stuck button on a standard inflator? I see no difference myself.

I have a standard second stage for my octo and a standard inflator but I own the integrated system too. I see advantages and disadvantages to both. In my limited experience I have never heard anyone complain about their integrated system freeflowing easily. I would think as long as you have practiced with whatever you have and are comfortable using it it really doesn't matter.

 

[Xitesmai]

Not really. I am still mystified by your comment. I have an integrated system. The 2nd stage on it is adjusted so as not to freeflow as easily. Even if it did I could easily disconnect it. I can inflate my BC manually by mouth. Besides, how is the air used in a standard inflator any different than that used by an integrated system? How is a stuck button on an integrated system any different than a stuck button on a standard inflator? I see no difference myself.

I have a standard second stage for my octo and a standard inflator but I own the integrated system too. I see advantages and disadvantages to both. In my limited experience I have never heard anyone complain about their integrated system freeflowing easily. I would think as long as you have practiced with whatever you have and are comfortable using it it really doesn't matter.

By having an integrated octo, you have in essence combined two systems, hence a failure in one for lack of a better term is a failure in both. If in the event of a stuck button on a standard BC, disconnect the supply and dump the air. In an integrated system with that problem you have just disconnected your alternate air source. Two is one and one is none....dive over.

I will fully admit in regards to freeflow I went based on research here on the boards, reading posts about integrated vs standard octos...maybe I was mislead.

 

[Them]

@Them - I do get it that the necklace is only for yourself. That's my hang-up. That just doesn't seem survival friendly to me - that is to say, in standard config, both your reg and the octo are available to your buddy to take. In necklace, he/she's only got one choice and thats to compromise your breathing to save his skin. Then you have to save youre skin. One need creates two needs before resolution.

I guess there is a question of whether "no regulator in mouth" really equals "compromised breathing". Since I am comfortable about removing my own regulator and replacing it, I see it as no big deal PROVIDED I have the ability to reach a regulator easily...which the necklace provides. Last Saturday I was diving along at 20-30 feet and a few times I removed/replaced my regulator as I swam just for comfort. If I will do it for comfort I'll surely do it to help someone in distress.

If they signal OOA, you can offer known-good air. An unused Octo or air2 doesn't promise that nearly so well as the reg you just inhaled from.

If they panic and steal the reg from your mouth - well as you found out that can happen anyway so you want a quick and reliable solution and that has nothing to do with OOA. An octo or even air2 doesn't promise that as well as the necklace.

 

[boulderjohn]

I would agree that, if your buddy is in a near-panic, they will probably go for your primary rather than your backup 2nd stage. It's way easier for them to find. They have to be calm to politely signal for your air and find the alternate. So it definitely behooves you to be ready to find your own backup octo quickly.
!

Lots of people say that, but I and a lot of others dispute that. In the only case I have ever been near, the OOA diver simply grabbed her buddy's alternate. When the same sort of thing was being said on a SB thread a few years ago, I polled most of the instructors at the shop, and everyone of them said that was what happened in every case they knew of. None had ever heard of a diver grabbing the primary. They had apparently gone for the regulator they had been trained to go for. Sometimes they even signaled first.

Maniago, Without some kind of notice, an OOA diver is going to find me pushing them away if they reach for my regs. Period. I am going to ensure my safety and not allow a panicked diver to wrap me up. Once I am clear of them the very next thing I am going to do it stuff my regulator into their face and grab my backup from (around neck, airsource, etc). To me, it's not the other persons choice what they get. I'm protecting myself first and by doing so, protecting my ability to help rescue them.

This is just about exactly the last thing I tell my students to do. You do not want to start a fight under water with an OOA diver. It is an almost certain way to cause at least one death, and possibly two. Do you really think that an OOA diver is going to passively back off when you push him or her away? Are you such a gorilla that you will easily overpower that diver, get him or her to calm down, and then give him or her the regulator? Or will that diver go at you with the superhuman strength of someone possessed by panic?

I tell my students that no matter what you practice, with a conventional octo setup, the OOA diver determines what happens:

1. If the diver reaches for your octo, which I think is most likely, get out of the way. If you try to hand it off, you will inevitably bump into each other and cause problems. (This is how BSAC teaches OOA, and for that reason.)

2. If the diver signals and waits, hand the diver your octo before panic ensues.

3. If the diver reaches for your primary, open your mouth and let it go. This is not the time for a fight. Take your octo yourself and sort things out once the diver is calm and in control.

 

[dmoore19]

By having an integrated octo, you have in essence combined two systems, hence a failure in one for lack of a better term is a failure in both. If in the event of a stuck button on a standard BC, disconnect the supply and dump the air. In an integrated system with that problem you have just disconnected your alternate air source. Two is one and one is none....dive over.

I will fully admit in regards to freeflow I went based on research here on the boards, reading posts about integrated vs standard octos...maybe I was mislead.

I can still dump the BC, makes no difference if the air is disconnected or not. The inflator works the same on both integrated and not. I do understand the fact that the octo is also disconnected, I would end the dive if the inflator was stuck others wouldn't.

I can understand the log hose and the necklace argument, your argument just doesn't make sense to me. Either way, use whatever you want, I do.

 

[DukeAMO]

I tell my students that no matter what you practice, with a conventional octo setup, the OOA diver determines what happens

That's a good way to think about it.

The only air-share problem I saw was when a kid in training did an air-share with his grandfather, and put his grandfather's backup 2nd stage in upside down. The grandfather thought it would be a good idea to help out his grandson, pull out the regulator, turn it over, and give it back. But the grandson hadn't even caught his breath yet, and when his grandfather pulled out the regulator, he choked on water and bolted for the surface. If the grandfather had just let him figure it out, he probably would have fixed it on his own.

Letting the OOA diver control the situation for a while would have worked much better in that case as well.

That's also why we bought octos that work well upside down. ;-) One less thing to worry about.