how many dives until...?

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As mentioned in a previous post, I recently wrote an article that examines the whole concept of 'experience'. We use that term far too freely and never really get any consensus about what 'experience' even means. What we care about is 'ability' surely?

Would love feedback.... the point of the article is to initiate some thoughts on the matter:

The Secret to Diving Expertise: Experience versus Ability
A comparative examination of the shortcomings of gaining experience versus deliberate practice.
 
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This is exactly whats bothering me with recreational c-cards and number of dives.

I met with DM's who claimed to have 500+ dives and could not even hover in a consistent manner. I met rec Instructors who could not even hold their depth within reasonable limits. They claimed to have more than 1000 dives btw and did not see anything wrong with their skills. In my experience paying the bill leads to a new rec c-card, not the ability to perform on a certain level. The best training I rceived did not earn me a c-card, but expanded my skills greatly.

Whats more, I train every dive precision in skills. I even train regularly in a divetank 10m wide, 10m deep for hours. Just practising skills like SMB deploy and basic 5 while hovering. That constant training is improving my skills and awareness, not c-cards and a lot of dives.
 
basic 5? Can you explain what they are? Thanks
 
I think I see where DevonDiver is coming from.

When we talk about experience, we tend to think of it in a a positive way, but as an educator for over 25 years (and also as a musician - we talk about experience and practice ad nasueum) we (well, some of us) believe that "experience" does not necessarily mean "practiced" and "practice" does not mean "good practice." If one is trying to learn something that requires repetition and practice to perfect or make second nature, first, there is no guarantee that the learner actually learned correctly what they were supposed to learn - and here the instructor should be evaluating if the learning was communicated as intended. Then the learner goes off to use/practice what was learned. Assuming the learner actually did learn the correct technique or method or whatever, then are they practicing it appropriately and effectively? If not, they are just learning or gaining experience with or reinforcing bad technique. But if they learned correctly and practiced appropriately (big ifs), then experience should equate to greater ability.

The reason I would say that about 20-25 dives is a good point for AOW, is that it's far enough along that the student has at that point started to solidify a technique (for good or bad) that can be evaluated and corrected. Sooner than that, the diver's technique may not be consistent enough to evaluate reliably. E.g., on one dive I may try to control buoyancy one way, and maybe use completely different methods on each of the next few dives because 1) I did not learn the appropriate technique and/or 2) I have not systematically and thoughtfully practiced my technique. The longer I use bad technique, the more it becomes learned and the harder it will be to correct.

AOW as I experienced it, was not as much about learning specific skills (I had already done boat, wreck, deep dives, knew how to use a compass, and did a private buoyancy checkout after purchasing new equipment) as it was an opportunity to do 5 dives with a private instructor who was able to evaluate my overall diving technique and to correct any original misconceptions/mislearning I had experienced from my OW course, correct any bad technique I had developed from practice over my last 20 or so dives, and provide additional guidance as to how I could practice and perfect my skills going forward. The AOW cert was actually meaningless to me, except for those (seemingly rare) instances where a dive op wants AOW cert to do a deep dive.
 
I agree with the above. AOW course is - or at least was - the least interesting in the PADI program.
 
basic 5? Can you explain what they are? Thanks

GUE term. Essentially a cursory test to demonstrate diving control. It is one of the first things taught in fundies and is kind of an eye opener for people who thought they had good control, but then they start drifting around a little or floating up with the tasking loading.


 
GUE term. Essentially a cursory test to demonstrate diving control. It is one of the first things taught in fundies and is kind of an eye opener for people who thought they had good control, but then they start drifting around a little or floating up with the tasking loading.


Quite amazing!
 
Agree with DevonDiver that ability rather than dive count should determine when you do AOW.
I did AOW after 2 post-OW cert. dives. Seemed good.
Did Rescue after 26 dives. Did OK in the course but maybe another 10 dives would've been in order.
Did DM after dive # 158. Seemed about right.
You never lose your DM cert. (or any PADI cert. for that matter). If you don't pay your PADI (pro) membership dues you become "inactive".
 
Personally I have made sure I had 20-30 dives before moving onto the next cert within a category of diving lets say. So that is, After OW, 30 dive before AOW. When I went to Cave diving, 20-30 dives between Cavern, Intro, and Full. Same with my tec training as well.

Between types however I had more, so before I started my cave training I had over 100 dives, and I was over 200 before going to tec.
 
I did my OW and immediately afterwards my AOW. I think I did benefit from a very good instructor (and no other students in the class) who was not focused on me somehow ticking off skills on their slate but actually doing them properly and also added a number of skills to the required ones. So the intensity of my training was certainly much higher than average.

I plan to do Rescue probably next year - at that point I should be somewhere between 80 and 100 dives.
 

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