How to answer "what is your highest certification level"?

[TMHeimer]

I’ve always called myself a wreck diver that happens to dive in caves. But I have to say: a 30 foot walk on firm ground to enter a nice, calm, crystal clear freshwater spring is way better then an hour of nausea and stingy eye water...

At least our Great Lakes wrecks don’t have saltwater — it’s just 40 degree colder... :/

Colder than where.....?

 

[TMHeimer]

The NAUI MSD has been described as the PADI DM course minus the teaching aspect. Basically the same theory, physiology stuff, etc. One could argue that NAUI MSD certainly ranks high on the cert. card list. One could also say that a lot of the theory in the PADI DM (thus the NAUI MSD) course is nice to know, but not really necessary.... Do you really have to know how Henry's law works or the M Values of specific theoretical compartments? Or do you just have to know to follow the rules of ascent speed and those of your DC or tables? Just depends on how you look at it.

 

[MichaelMc]

MSD is:

Padi:
AOW + Rescue + any 4 dive specialties and 50 total dives of any type
+ any 1 non-dive or dive specialty

NAUI:
AOW + rescue dive + nav dive + night/limvis dive + deep/simdeco dive + search/recover-light-salvage dive + 3 elective dives
+ 23 hours of non lead/teach/agency academics for NAUI AI DM and Instructor including rescue, first aid and emergency procedures.

You can compare them on the dive aspects or also on the non-dive aspects. The NAUI motto is "dive safety through education", which includes academics.

 

[Wibble]

What performance requirements are so difficult in rescue diver that are so arduous that a person with less than 50 dives would not be able to perform? Please cite the standards. A number of instructors from other agencies do include most, if not all, of the skills in PADI's rescue course in their open water classes.

Decent skills in arduous conditions.

Obviously depends on your aptitude, but mediocre skills will be dangerous in a rescue scenario -- the rescuer shouldn't become a casualty. Examples: buoyancy especially when doing a diver lift, handling a mask being kicked off and replacing with your spare, effective searches, poor visibility (common when something's gone wrong), keeping an eye on ones gas, depth, TTS, etc. As ever, diving in calm clear conditions is always easier than cold, dark and poor visibility.

Standards? This is RESCUE. You get what you get and you must be able to deal with it -- the course is about making you useful, not to collect yet another card.

The Rescue Diver course, renowned as one of PADIs best courses, is the first course where you're thinking beyond yourself. If you're still having to use conscious competence to deal with your own diving, you're not going to be much use observing and helping others.

 

[Wibble]

I’ve always called myself a wreck diver that happens to dive in caves. But I have to say: a 30 foot walk on firm ground to enter a nice, calm, crystal clear freshwater spring is way better then an hour of nausea and stingy eye water...

So you don't have to cave in to the sump, or portage your kit over a hill to a mine, or cart it through to the lower flooded sections....

Does sound nice and easy to do a 30' walk; many boats are bigger!

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Decent skills in arduous conditions.

Would you be more specific?

Obviously depends on your aptitude, but mediocre skills will be dangerous in a rescue scenario -- the rescuer shouldn't become a casualty. Examples: buoyancy especially when doing a diver lift, handling a mask being kicked off and replacing with your spare, effective searches, poor visibility (common when something's gone wrong), keeping an eye on ones gas, depth, TTS, etc. As ever, diving in calm clear conditions is always easier than cold, dark and poor visibility.

I've met people with thousands of dives with poor vizibility, zero situational awareness. I've met a number of cold water divers who had instructors with DIR backgrounds who were proficient with buoyancy, trim, finning, etc., all less than 50 dives.

People either have the ability to think under pressure, or they don't. Other than fundamental skills, I don't see any con ed courses preparing a student to take rescue. Again, there are NAUI/SDI instructors who add a lot of rescue training into their open water. I haven't been around long enough, but my understand (someone please correct me if I am wrong) that PADI did have rescue skills in OW. My guess that was removed for practical reasons as the bulk of the dive market follows a dive guide while on vacation and doesn't even need to be autonomous.

Standards? This is RESCUE. You get what you get and you must be able to deal with it -- the course is about making you useful, not to collect yet another card.

Every course has performance standards.

The Rescue Diver course, renowned as one of PADIs best courses, is the first course where you're thinking beyond yourself. If you're still having to use conscious competence to deal with your own diving, you're not going to be much use observing and helping others.

Open water divers are supposed (per WRSTC requirements) to be able to assist their buddy with some problems: OOA, cramps, towing, etc.. Rescue just builds on that.

 

[Schwob]

I think my non existent PADDY Heck of a Wreck of a Diver card would rank pretty high up there if it existed. At least in the honesty department...

 

[Wibble]

Think we're saying the same thing.

I'm a bit odd about training. I do training for a specific purpose which is to gain the skills and practice them. I really don't care about certification cards; my OW + AOW training was not particularly impressive, being done in a resort. If diving in warm clear waters at a resort was all the diving I was doing, the OW + AOW would be adequate. It most definitely wasn't adequate for diving in cold, tidal, poor visibility, dark waters common back "home". In essence, the "sausage machine" courses aimed to minimum standards whereas diving at home required considerably better skills.

Doing the Rescue Diver course was quite a revelation. This was a whole change of approach and took a while to sink in. It definitely made me a better diver, thinking far more of others. The Local Dive Shop didn't pass all divers and got them to re-take parts of the course the next time it ran, for the benefit of everyone in the club.

That certifications were handed out was a bonus.

 

[TMHeimer]

MSD is:

Padi:
AOW + Rescue + any 4 dive specialties and 50 total dives of any type
+ any 1 non-dive or dive specialty

NAUI:
AOW + rescue dive + nav dive + night/limvis dive + deep/simdeco dive + search/recover-light-salvage dive + 3 elective dives
+ 23 hours of non lead/teach/agency academics for NAUI AI DM and Instructor including rescue, first aid and emergency procedures.

You can compare them on the dive aspects or also on the non-dive aspects. The NAUI motto is "dive safety through education", which includes academics.

Yes, of course I know all that (many threads). I assume you know I was comparing the NAUI MSD to the PADI Divemaster course (not the PADI MSD) with regard to the academic content and where that all sits on the "cert. ranking list".

Regarding PADI MSD-- I thought it could be any 5 specialties, but they may have changed that (only one "non-dive" specialty would be something new since I did it in 2007).
My big beef with PADI MSD is that you can take some specialties that really don't improve your diving or safety and still be a MSD.
IF you take specialties that I consider more serious, such as UW Nav, S & R, Deep, Wreck, etc.-- the hours in water pile up. If you compare that to the NAUI diving in their MSD, I think it is fairly comparable. Of course NAUI has the academics.

 

[MichaelMc]

Yes, of course I know all that (many threads). I assume you know I was comparing the NAUI MSD to the PADI Divemaster course (not the PADI MSD) with regard to the academic content and where that all sits on the "cert. ranking list".

Yes, I realized that after I responded. Yet it seemed like my fixing it to ask if asking whether a rec cert taught more than was needed, in a thread on the highest cert, was maybe questioning how high can you go.

We've also been largely ignoring the GUE rec certs.