I Don't Understand Dive Shops

[Neilwood]

Most dive shops are run by people passionate about diving but absolutely stupid about how to run a successful business.

Unfortunately this is the truth.

Shops tend to fall in three catagories:
1) The diver who runs a shop -knows what divers would like but the owner inevitably knows little about running a business and struggles by without making enough money to reinvest in the business. Can be seen in the inventory being thrown on shelves or hung on 20 year old slatwall. Have very little on line presence or sales.
2) The businessman who runs a shop - by not understanding divers and trying to squeeze every nickel out of them ends up driving people to other shops. Online business is hit and miss.
3) The mix of 1&2 - If you are lucky to have the combination of someone who understands divers and knows how to run a business you might just have a shop worth giving your business.

I have all three relatively close to me:
One shop gets by on just enough to pay salaries for the shop staff and technicians. Stock is old and haphazard. Can talk with them all day about diving as the shop is so quiet.
Shop two only see you as an income stream and will try to over sell you on everything. They refuse to fill tanks that they haven't checked (despite them having been tested a week earlier to the exact same standard - have witnessed the arguments).
Shop three - great shop where you can chat about diving, buy your gear, get training but they will sell you the right thing even if it means more work for them (even from outwith their normal product lines).

Guess which shop gets my business despite being further away.

 

[Scubatude]

This is sad, but true. Over the past 6 years owning and running Scubatude, I have tried to cultivate a change in our local dive industry. The old shops are still digging their heals in, trying to compete with other shops in the area instead of working together for the good of the community, and blaming the internet for their declining sales. As a result the customer service is lacking. I am currently working with 2 shop owners in So Cal who are trying to get up and running. I am hoping to see a climate of cooperation among dive professionals for the common good of our dive community. I have to say I am encouraged by the new shop owners attitudes. I embrace these new dive community partners, and hope they are a glimpse of things to come.

 

[icechip]

Just my 2 cents, but I think LDS's need to sell the "local" factor, especially in the non-warm/tropical areas. Local dive sites and opportunities should be pushed/sold to new divers throughout the training classes as well as afterwards. Exotic vacations are great but should be just one phase of the diving experience an LDS should offer. Put together maps and nearby dive site descriptions of surrounding areas, perhaps as far as regional. Build email chains of local divers and keep selling local diving. There's your customer base.

 

[pauldw]

I still haven't figured out dive shops. So here are some more naive questions.

The only specialty class I've taken is nitrox, and I don't have a need to be a "master" scuba diver so I'm not lining up to take other specialty classes. But PADI has a "Zombie Apocalypse Diver" course someone invented, that might be a fun thing. One local shop is on the list of places that supposedly do that course, but that shop here says they don't want to do the course. So how do the finances of dive shops work? Do they have to pay PADI, and the course inventor, and the instructor, out of the course fee? Is it a flat rate so a larger group is more profit, or is it a percentage per student? Is that divying up the course fee what makes it not feasible to offer the course? Do instructors get paid a percentage, or a flat fee, or what?

If a dive shop has very limited selection, and what looks like perhaps some kind of selling arrangement with an equipment manufacturer that isn't on my drool list, is it appropriate to saying "This is the gear I want" and see if they can order it for a reasonable price? Can they do that, or are they in the same position I am as a buyer?

What would be the attraction of paying for dive travel through a dive shop instead of just setting up one's own vacation? Convenience, or being with people you might know? Do dive shops get access to anything I can't find on my own by contacting a dive shop in the far off area? What has gotten me back into wanting to dive more was a trip to Tulum my wife set up just for a beach getaway that she arranged for not much money, but I also spent a morning with a dive shop there on a cenote thing I set up with them, and it was a blast! Although the business relationship of the guide to the shop still mystifies me; it seemed a bit predatory on both sides. And it was a dive shop in every sense, which is why I think I finally need to bite the bullet and get my own gear.

 

[TMHeimer]

Our shop here does organize the odd tropical trip, but emphasizes local sites as well--maps, descriptions, etc. In fact, some of them were mapped by DMCs for their mapping project.
I would never take an "organized" dive trip because I like to do my own thing (not just the shell collecting, but shore diving and other activities on land). That's just me. I would assume in general the cost is similar whether in a group or not, depending on accomodations.

 

[Damselfish]

As far as shop trips, they can have their pros and cons like anything. It can be fun to travel with a group. Usually you will wind up with your own boat(s) and can call the shots more so than than individuals. If you're a single diver, it might be a way to get buddies that are a cut above a random instabuddy you may get otherwise. If you go on a number of trips with the same shop or group, there will probably be people you will get to see again. On a long trip, traveling with a group is nice - having people to commiserate with on the 2am layover in some crappy airport, watch each others bags when you go off to forage for food, whatever. There can be other perks.

I like the convenience aspect of it. If a shop has already reserved a trip that is something I wanted to do sometime - usually a more distant and complicated one that I haven't gotten around to arranging - if the dates work I can just sign up and be pretty much done with it. Also there are some things that are actually difficult to do on your own - in particular there are some liveaboards that tend to get booked up years ahead by shops and groups so it can be hard to get on as an individual.

Shops can charge the same as you would pay on your own, they make money from various discounts and free spots they will get for booking a whole boat or large group. In my experience most do, I think it would be hard to charge more with the easy availability of information. But it's always good to check. (Some private groups will split the savings among the group.) OTAH, sometimes there are special deals on resorts and liveaboards, especially last minute ones, and you're unlikely to get them traveling this way. One shop I've traveled with does a really good job of organizing things and taking care of stuff along the way - even to the point of getting info on everyone's gear and bringing along spare parts and tools in case they need to fix anything, so that is a value add. Another I've traveled with pretty much did nothing but book the trip and collect the money, and was rather poor on organizing anything or even communication. So they can very a lot.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I don't understand why shops continue with cheap classes from GroupOn, discounts at events, etc., and then try to make it up with equipment sales. This isn't 1995. Most people will pay more at a LDS if they are treated well and the markup is reasonable. But the large markups and the high pressure that I've seen is counter productive. I was teaching at a shop now out of business run by a used Fiat salesman of an owner (I said that to his face) and I'd just watch my students tune out as he did his high pressure sales pitch that included ripping on perfectly good gear that he didn't carry.

I feel that the dive industry is a service industry. You need to take care of your customers. You need to also foster a culture of a dive lifestyle. That isn't easy to do.

I don't lament the closing of many shops as they have unhealthy business models and practices. Let those who "get it" step in. It isn't rocket science, but it does require some business sense. A Field of Dreams business model simply never works.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This is sad, but true. Over the past 6 years owning and running Scubatude, I have tried to cultivate a change in our local dive industry. The old shops are still digging their heals in, trying to compete with other shops in the area instead of working together for the good of the community, and blaming the internet for their declining sales. As a result the customer service is lacking. I am currently working with 2 shop owners in So Cal who are trying to get up and running. I am hoping to see a climate of cooperation among dive professionals for the common good of our dive community. I have to say I am encouraged by the new shop owners attitudes. I embrace these new dive community partners, and hope they are a glimpse of things to come.

At one point, there was a group of dive shops that tried to get everyone to work together for everyone's benefit, but the owner of one shop didn't want to participate, and complained to the state about their "unfair business practices" so that effort died.

Sad, as it would be a win for everyone.

 

[boulderjohn]

So how do the finances of dive shops work? Do they have to pay PADI, and the course inventor, and the instructor, out of the course fee? Is it a flat rate so a larger group is more profit, or is it a percentage per student? Is that divying up the course fee what makes it not feasible to offer the course? Do instructors get paid a percentage, or a flat fee, or what?

Courses like that are called "distinctive specialties." That happens is an individual instructor or group of instructors decides a particular class might make sense and goes through a fairly elaborate process to get it approved by PADI. PADI has to be sure that the course is not doing something that is outside of standard scuba practice before they will approve it. Once that course is approved, the only people who can teach it are the ones who created the course or others who submit the same course outline for approval. In some cases, the instructors who create the course distribute the outline freely.

The reason you as an instructor want it approved is for liability. If you teach a course that you made up by the seat of your pants, and a student dies while taking it, the onus will be on you in the subsequent lawsuit to prove that what you were doing was safe. If the course was an approved PADI distinctive specialty, then your actions had the approval of the world's largest diving agency, and it will be next to impossible for an attorney to prove to a jury that it was unsafe--assuming you were following your own standards in the course.

Here is an example. I created a course called Understanding Overhead Environments. The purpose of the course was to teach students about the nature of different kinds of overhead environments so that they would know why it may be perfectly fine to enter one and nearly suicidal to enter another. I had one Hell of a time convincing PADI that this course was acceptable, and they looked at my standards and instructional outline extremely carefully. They said I could have an optional confined water skill section to the course, but I could not make a real dive part of the instruction. It is purely an academic course.

When I teach the course, the only money PADI gets is the fee for the certification card. If the student doesn't want a certification card, PADI doesn't even know I taught it. If I were working for a typical dive shop and taught the class, PADI would get the fee for the certification card, the shop would get about 80-90% of the fee for signing you up, and the instructor might get, say $15. Maybe $10.

From what I understand, the Zombie Apocalypse course is a fun way to learn some real diving skills.

 

[Scott]

I still haven't figured out dive shops. So here are some more naive questions.

The only specialty class I've taken is nitrox, and I don't have a need to be a "master" scuba diver so I'm not lining up to take other specialty classes. But PADI has a "Zombie Apocalypse Diver" course someone invented, that might be a fun thing. One local shop is on the list of places that supposedly do that course, but that shop here says they don't want to do the course. So how do the finances of dive shops work? Do they have to pay PADI, and the course inventor, and the instructor, out of the course fee? Is it a flat rate so a larger group is more profit, or is it a percentage per student? Is that divying up the course fee what makes it not feasible to offer the course? Do instructors get paid a percentage, or a flat fee, or what?

Why they may not want to teach the course could very well be as John described, the instructor get very little. It's even more frustrating when it's the instructor that holds the rating and the shop reaps majority of the fee. I know one local instructor the has the Zombie rating, not sure they are even active anymore. That may be another reason the store doesn't want to do it, no instructor.

If a dive shop has very limited selection, and what looks like perhaps some kind of selling arrangement with an equipment manufacturer that isn't on my drool list, is it appropriate to saying "This is the gear I want" and see if they can order it for a reasonable price? Can they do that, or are they in the same position I am as a buyer?

You can always ask bit you may pay a premium for it. If the shop only carries bran X, Y and Z and you want a BC from A, they may have an account but don't order enough to be a 'stocking dealer'. Their cost may be 25% off retail. If they have a good relationship with another shop that carries that brand, I have known them to buy from the shop at cost the benefits both and then sell to you the customer at reasonable price.

What would be the attraction of paying for dive travel through a dive shop instead of just setting up one's own vacation? Convenience, or being with people you might know? Do dive shops get access to anything I can't find on my own by contacting a dive shop in the far off area? What has gotten me back into wanting to dive more was a trip to Tulum my wife set up just for a beach getaway that she arranged for not much money, but I also spent a morning with a dive shop there on a cenote thing I set up with them, and it was a blast! Although the business relationship of the guide to the shop still mystifies me; it seemed a bit predatory on both sides. And it was a dive shop in every sense, which is why I think I finally need to bite the bullet and get my own gear.

Convenience is a big part of it as well as traveling with others you know or are like minded.
If you book a week directly with the resort you will likely pay the same amount. If you book through a travel consultant, you pay the same price. The resort pays that consultant a commission, typically 10%.