Instructors who yell for no reason

[JohnnyC]

I have a feeling that there may be some untold circumstances here seeing as how the OP only has second hand knowledge based on the description of events by the same people that received the dressing down, and the instructor in question has received both awards from DAN, as well as "Instructor Trainer of the Year" from one certifying agency.

Considering the instructor and course in question isn't even remotely close to a "basic scuba discussion" topic, I feel like the thread needs to be moved to a more appropriate forum. Talking in a big boy voice is entirely different when you're dealing with an OW student as opposed to a cave student, and what's inappropriate for an OW diver may be completely appropriate for a diver training to enter the most dangerous environment one can place themselves in....

 

[gcarter]

Yelling is generally not a good way to start.

But.

Context is hugely important. By the time something has been explained and ignored several times, reversion to yelling may be required to get the seriousness to sink in.

Nobody ever yell at their kids when they refuse to pay attention or properly follow direction? Same thing.

 

[Schwob]

Well I've seen it in various ways (not just scuba, but there too):

- A - The instructor that yells and screams and is doing so basically to make up for an obvious lack of skill at the "instruction - people - end of things". Maybe a very competent diver, but essentially a bad instructor who is mostly stressed out. Not good, but still can be learned from with the right attitude. But why? Why pay that person and learn something while not enjoying it at all?

- B - The instructor that yells and screams seemingly all the same, but less to make up for a lack of teaching skill, more as method to drive students to better and better performance. It works for some, maybe many students, not for all. Some of those will love the class, some not. Some students, maybe those who can't take " the good thing is you didn't cry - yet" as a compliment, will hate it.

One obvious problem is that the "type A" instructor invariably always believed to be a type "B" instructor and won't ever see the misconception...

- C - An instructor who achieves his / her teaching agenda quietly methodically and w/o all the drama. Some of those are doing very well eaking out top prrformance out of their students. Even if, some students that prefer the hogh energy approach may think ot is a class that is too relaxed. Others will love it...

Then on the student side:

- A - Will learn no matter what and will self improve no matter what. Isually does not make excuses and carries on with learning and will thrive whether "cared for or not". It is a mindset, not a capability. The naturals progress faster, the klumsy ones slower, but the mindset will make them progress.

- B - progressing well if nurtured and caref for. not so well if not, but still actively working on improving their skill every dive.

- C - Not sure how to put this: The difficult student. The student who thinks he tries hard and spends tome and effort trying hard, but is not actually trying, w/o seeing that he is actually not even really trying. The student that actively seeks advice for his improvement, but then criticises that advise, making excuses for why it cannot be followed.

A simple hypothetical example: Say I have 140 dives. Say I have a bunch of C-cards. Say I think I am quite OK with my diving and plan to take the next level class - whatever it is... and you dive with me as a buddy.. no current ... and you see me descending basically hand over hand on a descent line only, ditto for ascends. And you see me never hanging free in the water column during a safety stop to practise buoyancy control or helicopter turns or back finning or whatever, but you always see me literally hanging, clinging on the line instead. Ignore all else, if you observed this would you not think I could do a bit better in improving my diving just by utilizing those practise opportunities towards practising... e.g. being neutrally buoyant or descending w/o using the line for propulsion by controlling my speed, or ascending that way, or...
Then assume I ask you for your advise as to what I could improve...
And you give it ...

Well if I take it well and take it to heart and a light bulb goes off and I change my ways to not squander away those free practice opportunities you dd a good thing...

But if I tell you why your advise does not really apply and why I need to dive the way I do and why it's plenty good and adequate for now, you probably wonder why you said something in the first place and may choose to not do that again and just see me repeat the same thing over and over again with little or very slow progress. I could be that hard to talk to dive buddy and I may be a hard to teach student too in that case.

Now, would that "B-type" instructor from above do me any good and manage to knock me off my path with the "pedagogically applied drama" and knock me onto a better path? Maybe. Maybe just the opposite.

Would the "C-type"? Maybe, if he/she is really good and makes me see my flawed ways. But I may, due to my nature (in that hypothetical example) still resist that instructor who is trying to change my ways and like that instructor quite less than one who goes along with my ways and just waits it out intil I get it no matter how long it takes...

That must be a tough balance to strike as an instructor, more so if I (in that hypothetical example) come to your tech class, "higly recommended" by my vast array of rec. C-cards and you come to realize I really just don't belong in this class yet and may have to tell me...

Anyway, I've seen divers like that and I admire an instructor (also seen that) who can get through to them and have them actually achieve the course objective well... and much more so, if the student is "turned" in the process to become an actively learning diver.

And I've seen the instructional train wreck that can happen if the instructor is oblivious to essentially working up to that with the student at hand...

 

[TMHeimer]

I can't picture many cases that a need to yell would be effective in dive classes. Yelling is a more a concept of group teaching, even in the military. It is more about making the correction for one trainee in a loud manner, so that the others around them also understand what mistake was made, so the issue hopefully doesn't happen in the future. Unfortunately, too many wanna-be drill instructors only have the movies to go off of and think they need to chew out the individual in that manner. Save the yelling for those must stop immediately safety issues.

I think this is one of the better replies on a topic that could go on for years. Teachers all differ, as do students. As someone else said, try to find an instructor that suits your needs. This may be difficult if there are few shops/instructors to choose from in one's area. As a Band teacher I rarely yelled or even raised my voice--even less so as I piled on the years. Teachers develop their own approaches, sometimes over time. I'm sure school classroom procedures have changed due to computers/technology since I retired 21 years ago. But you're still dealing with personalities of both teacher and students. It's a tough one for sure--always has been.
There is yelling and there is yelling. If I was upset at the trumpet section for not practicing their hard part enough they would know that I was steamed. But there is no excuse for personally undressing someone in front of the group.
The fact that stupid mistakes in Scuba (unlike in Band) could result in injury or worse would seem to change the yelling aspect somewhat. Still can be done the right way though.

 

[lowflyer]

I would be cautious accepting someone's accusation of an other's "yelling" as fact unless I witnessed it myself.
Some people are "tough" and seem immune to loud, vociferous berating. Other people consider it yelling if you simply give a little calm correction. They are overly sensitive to any criticism.

So I would want to have some personal interaction with a possible highly rated instructor before dismissing him based on another person's opinion.

 

[lowviz]

The Quotations Page: Quote from Oliver Wendell Holmes

 

[rgdiver1]

My original instructor was ex-military, and he ran the class like military style training. He was tough and loud at times, and I'm not sure how I managed to complete the class. Looking back on that however, I am eternally grateful to him. There would be a lot fewer divers now if all scuba training was like my original instruction, but they all would be well trained.

BTW my cave and trimix instructors were all tough too.

 

[lowviz]

My original instructor was ex-military, and he ran the class like military style training. He was tough and loud at times, and I'm not sure how I managed to complete the class. Looking back on that however, I am eternally grateful to him. There would be a lot fewer divers now if all scuba training was like my original instruction ...//...

I don't doubt a word of your wisdom.

 

[lowviz]

he ran the class like military style training.

You hesitated far too long. Your position has been overrun.

The last course I certed in was from @abnfrog. I'm pretty sure he qualifies as military too.

He specializes in a humanistic approach to recreational dive training. His specialty is (and dear to his heart) training us old fogeys to push ever forward.

I seek unusual adventure. I could have stayed on his property for "included in cost". But I found a hunting lodge that was just beyond real. See pic.

I learned about orchids in Canada and was only late to ice diving class one time when a snowmobile of beaver pelts blocked me. No judgment, but this is how many Canadians feed their families in the freaking boonies.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You mean I should not call my students "maggot"?

Now you tell me.

In all seriousness, when things go bad, I ask them questions. A lot depends on the student's personality as well as others in the course. I think one has to go by the most sensitive in the group, and ask more questions of the "tougher" ones, as they will understand that there's an issue. Softer ones I limit the questions.

When students really exasperate me (warm water divers trying to get into cold water diving and have absolutely zero awareness as so far, I'm used to them being coddled, such as looking at me to tell them when to add air to their drysuit/BCD when they have 70+ dives, or students who just completely forget the briefing as soon as we hit the water), I cut the training portion of the dive and make the rest of the dive a fun dive. Not very efficient, I'll admit, but I'm not as experienced as others here who have more tools in their toolbox for dealing with "challenging" students. I'm still trying to figure things out a fair bit.