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Instructors who yell for no reason
- Thread starter Marie13
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Short version:
Yelling is not always bad. Kind and sensitive is not always good. Context is everything. Understanding that context and when to use the appropriate methods is the hallmark of a good instructor.
Long rambling version:
Instructing people in a hazardous activity is a fairly specialised activity. Generally, those who end up doing so have achieved a certain level of expertise and as such are considered to be good candidates for passing that expertise along.
However, just because you may be really good at something doesn't mean you are or even can be an effective transmission vector of that expertise.
Every student has a learning style that will be most effective for them to receive and retain information. Every instructor has a "natural" teaching method, usually a blend of their own personality and the example they have received from their own instructors over the years. These two styles may not be compatible at all.
If you do a "teaching" course, ie where you are trained in didactic methods and approaches, you will be taught a certain level of amateur psychology, with the intent of analysing a student to determine where they fall in the learning spectrum. You should also learn how to analyse yourself to figure out where you fall on the teaching spectrum.
As you become more experienced, you should be able to adapt your teaching style to match a students learning style better.
However, this is very much determined by whether you actually want to be a better instructor (Many don't. They are only teaching to earn a living, be respected, and all the myriad reasons people get into the game.)
Unfortunately, in scuba, there is little to no emphasis/training on the actual teaching side of things. The emphasis is all on having your skills up to whatever bar is in use, but the bulk of an IDC is rote, cookie cutter teaching. This will work for the bulk of students, with the bulk of instructors, sufficiently well that nobody dies.
The nett result is that instructors have a limited tool bag, and all their problems look like nails.
To the OP. I am not a "canopy-basher" (aviation equivalent of yelling) type instructor and never have been. However, I have yelled at groups of student before, deliberately, with a specific intent. If I was running a cave course, I can see a scenario where everyone is laughing and having a good time, messing up checks etc, where a well timed "reset" would definitely be in everyone's interest. Right now, if I have students who are too flippant about buoyancy and weighting, I send them a link to the Russian diver death in Blue Hole. Very effective.
If I had an instructor that spent their time yelling at me, I would have a chat with them about our expectations from each other and if we couldn't find common ground, I would change instructors. I pay way too much for dive courses to have a poor learning experience because someone is too proud to accept that they may not have it all right, all the time. I will often initiate these conversations before the course (as an instructor too) and find that works wonders. (@JohnnyC has been a fly on the wall for one of these)
Yelling is not always bad. Kind and sensitive is not always good. Context is everything. Understanding that context and when to use the appropriate methods is the hallmark of a good instructor.
Long rambling version:
Instructing people in a hazardous activity is a fairly specialised activity. Generally, those who end up doing so have achieved a certain level of expertise and as such are considered to be good candidates for passing that expertise along.
However, just because you may be really good at something doesn't mean you are or even can be an effective transmission vector of that expertise.
Every student has a learning style that will be most effective for them to receive and retain information. Every instructor has a "natural" teaching method, usually a blend of their own personality and the example they have received from their own instructors over the years. These two styles may not be compatible at all.
If you do a "teaching" course, ie where you are trained in didactic methods and approaches, you will be taught a certain level of amateur psychology, with the intent of analysing a student to determine where they fall in the learning spectrum. You should also learn how to analyse yourself to figure out where you fall on the teaching spectrum.
As you become more experienced, you should be able to adapt your teaching style to match a students learning style better.
However, this is very much determined by whether you actually want to be a better instructor (Many don't. They are only teaching to earn a living, be respected, and all the myriad reasons people get into the game.)
Unfortunately, in scuba, there is little to no emphasis/training on the actual teaching side of things. The emphasis is all on having your skills up to whatever bar is in use, but the bulk of an IDC is rote, cookie cutter teaching. This will work for the bulk of students, with the bulk of instructors, sufficiently well that nobody dies.
The nett result is that instructors have a limited tool bag, and all their problems look like nails.
To the OP. I am not a "canopy-basher" (aviation equivalent of yelling) type instructor and never have been. However, I have yelled at groups of student before, deliberately, with a specific intent. If I was running a cave course, I can see a scenario where everyone is laughing and having a good time, messing up checks etc, where a well timed "reset" would definitely be in everyone's interest. Right now, if I have students who are too flippant about buoyancy and weighting, I send them a link to the Russian diver death in Blue Hole. Very effective.
If I had an instructor that spent their time yelling at me, I would have a chat with them about our expectations from each other and if we couldn't find common ground, I would change instructors. I pay way too much for dive courses to have a poor learning experience because someone is too proud to accept that they may not have it all right, all the time. I will often initiate these conversations before the course (as an instructor too) and find that works wonders. (@JohnnyC has been a fly on the wall for one of these)
DanielRJones
Contributor
Depends on the person being instructed.
There is a reason military training you get shouted at and put down because it works.
Men in general work better with being told they are doing something wrong and are ****. They will push and try to prove the instructor wrong.
Women on the other hand are more likely to just accept it and think they are ****.
This is the truth of it yes some men may not work well in this environment and some women will thrive in it. But there is a reason this tactic is used in army's all over the world I gives results.
Personally I work best being shouted at.
There is a reason military training you get shouted at and put down because it works.
Men in general work better with being told they are doing something wrong and are ****. They will push and try to prove the instructor wrong.
Women on the other hand are more likely to just accept it and think they are ****.
This is the truth of it yes some men may not work well in this environment and some women will thrive in it. But there is a reason this tactic is used in army's all over the world I gives results.
Personally I work best being shouted at.
There is a lot of cultural bias that we as students and teachers bring to the mix. It may be that in general women have not been yelled at often (by men, who are culturally indoctrinated that one should treat women with kid gloves) and that creates a stronger reaction than with a man being yelled at.
However.
I do not believe that telling someone they are inferior produces anything like the results that modern approaches have. As a military combat flight instructor and weapons instructor, I know that the military has been moving away from those practices for years now. This is especially apparent in the technical fields where efficiency equates to lots of dollars.
The average drill sergeant of old had received next to no training in how to transfer knowledge, but their yelling etc is NOT primarily to teach. That method is mainly there to act as a stress test for new recruits in order to remove those who cannot deal with a hostile environment. Once you move into specialised fields within your mustering, the approaches become much more scientific and less aggressive.
I would argue that, in an environment where I am paying for the privilege, for a leisure activity, an expensive one, yelling at me when it is not appropriate would be counter-productive.
However.
I do not believe that telling someone they are inferior produces anything like the results that modern approaches have. As a military combat flight instructor and weapons instructor, I know that the military has been moving away from those practices for years now. This is especially apparent in the technical fields where efficiency equates to lots of dollars.
The average drill sergeant of old had received next to no training in how to transfer knowledge, but their yelling etc is NOT primarily to teach. That method is mainly there to act as a stress test for new recruits in order to remove those who cannot deal with a hostile environment. Once you move into specialised fields within your mustering, the approaches become much more scientific and less aggressive.
I would argue that, in an environment where I am paying for the privilege, for a leisure activity, an expensive one, yelling at me when it is not appropriate would be counter-productive.
Wookie
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I used to get complaints all the time. "Your wife yelled at me". I started initially chewing her ass. Then, I realized that she never ever ever raises her voice (yells) unless telling the cat to get off the table. So I changed my approach. "Your wife yelled at me". Oh really? Did she raise her voice? Did she berate you in front of others? "Well, no". Then what dumbass thing did you do that caused her to fear you would kill yourself? "Well, I only.....". Now, I'm glad you came in to complain, cause I'm about to really yell at you,
I agree with the above posters. Yelling is subjective, and if you didn't witness the "yelling" first hand, you have no idea what really happened. I see so many people with their little feelings hurt for being yelled at when no voice was raised, no public berating took place, and all that really happened was that a dumbassery was exposed. In fact, in well over 20 years of being an instructor, I don't think I've ever heard any instructor ever yell at any student no matter what shenanigans they pulled.
I think your "yellees" may have been making it up.
I agree with the above posters. Yelling is subjective, and if you didn't witness the "yelling" first hand, you have no idea what really happened. I see so many people with their little feelings hurt for being yelled at when no voice was raised, no public berating took place, and all that really happened was that a dumbassery was exposed. In fact, in well over 20 years of being an instructor, I don't think I've ever heard any instructor ever yell at any student no matter what shenanigans they pulled.
I think your "yellees" may have been making it up.
ajduplessis
Contributor
People that yell will do the same in their private lives, the same holds true for all other attributes. a Cheethas does not suddely loose its spots....
The best instructor will fail to effectively transfer knowledge if the student is not compatible with his “nature”
The best instructor will fail to effectively transfer knowledge if the student is not compatible with his “nature”
What do you say to a student that has 2 black eyes?
Nothing. You've told them twice already
So the above is in jest (although sometimes..)
I've just completed a week teaching kids between the ages of 11 and 14. Whilst it's rewarding at the end of the week to see how far they've come. It's challenging and frustrating especially as some of the younger ones are so "mothered" they can't literally even dress themselves.
Shouting doesn't work (even though you want too sometimes)
We found we had to be creative. You couldn't' brief the whole lesson and all the skills and expect them to remember (their minds drift). We also found that walking through the "difficult" skills like air share so they can get all the mechanics of which hand does what sorted without being distracted by being in the water. Similarly with CESA they would walk down a 9m string on dry land saying Ahhh so they knew they could do it.
It still didn't stop them forgetting in the water, but it helped. After all they are just kids. Much as we liked them and were proud of them the beer when they left was well deserved
Adults can be the most frustrating. I can forgive not being able to easily do the skill or having "phobia's" that's life. It's when they patiently don't listen or don't even give the courtesy of paying attention.
While an Instructor needs to find bespoke ways of teaching the most challenging individuals because you can't always use the same methods, the student has got to want to learn. The people who thinks they know better or doesn't want to be there, or just wants to go through the motions to get a card are the most frustrating
These are the times that certainly make you wonder why you are there especially when teaching is not your primary career and you could be doing other stuff instead
Nothing. You've told them twice already
So the above is in jest (although sometimes..)
I've just completed a week teaching kids between the ages of 11 and 14. Whilst it's rewarding at the end of the week to see how far they've come. It's challenging and frustrating especially as some of the younger ones are so "mothered" they can't literally even dress themselves.
Shouting doesn't work (even though you want too sometimes)
We found we had to be creative. You couldn't' brief the whole lesson and all the skills and expect them to remember (their minds drift). We also found that walking through the "difficult" skills like air share so they can get all the mechanics of which hand does what sorted without being distracted by being in the water. Similarly with CESA they would walk down a 9m string on dry land saying Ahhh so they knew they could do it.
It still didn't stop them forgetting in the water, but it helped. After all they are just kids. Much as we liked them and were proud of them the beer when they left was well deserved
Adults can be the most frustrating. I can forgive not being able to easily do the skill or having "phobia's" that's life. It's when they patiently don't listen or don't even give the courtesy of paying attention.
While an Instructor needs to find bespoke ways of teaching the most challenging individuals because you can't always use the same methods, the student has got to want to learn. The people who thinks they know better or doesn't want to be there, or just wants to go through the motions to get a card are the most frustrating
These are the times that certainly make you wonder why you are there especially when teaching is not your primary career and you could be doing other stuff instead
DanielRJones
Contributor
What do you say to a student that has 2 black eyes?
Nothing. You've told them twice already
So the above is in jest (although sometimes..)
I've just completed a week teaching kids between the ages of 11 and 14. Whilst it's rewarding at the end of the week to see how far they've come. It's challenging and frustrating especially as some of the younger ones are so "mothered" they can't literally even dress themselves.
Shouting doesn't work (even though you want too sometimes)
We found we had to be creative. You couldn't' brief the whole lesson and all the skills and expect them to remember (their minds drift). We also found that walking through the "difficult" skills like air share so they can get all the mechanics of which hand does what sorted without being distracted by being in the water. Similarly with CESA they would walk down a 9m string on dry land saying Ahhh so they knew they could do it.
It still didn't stop them forgetting in the water, but it helped. After all they are just kids. Much as we liked them and were proud of them the beer when they left was well deserved
Adults can be the most frustrating. I can forgive not being able to easily do the skill or having "phobia's" that's life. It's when they patiently don't listen or don't even give the courtesy of paying attention.
While an Instructor needs to find bespoke ways of teaching the most challenging individuals because you can't always use the same methods, the student has got to want to learn. The people who thinks they know better or doesn't want to be there, or just wants to go through the motions to get a card are the most frustrating
These are the times that certainly make you wonder why you are there especially when teaching is not your primary career and you could be doing other stuff instead
What about people that you have told 2 times before and know they can do it but are not doing it.
Lets say hand positions or bend in their knees or fin positions. How many times do you pull them aside and give them a warm arm and talk to them before you just shout ' Dave arms out knees bent' that shouting is not angry shouting at dave but is enough to refocus him on his arm position and leg positions
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Like sharing air, yelling at a student represents multiple failures and mostly on the instructor's part. If a student put themselves in danger on your watch, then you failed to communicate effectively. You should look at your teaching/communication skills and figure out where YOU failed. I failed with the student at Blue Heron Bridge because I didn't get an affirmation back that she understood that specific limit. I told her our limits, but I didn't make sure she completely understood them. If I had, then I wouldn't have been yelling at her underwater, would I? Is she at all responsible? Sure, but as a student, her safety is my primary responsibility. She doesn't know what she doesn't know, and it's my job to bring her up to speed. Even if I didn't yell at her, her trying to swim into danger showed that I failed in that respect.
Often yelling is nothing but an instructor's frustration at not getting their teaching(s) across. That usually means they don't really understand the subject they're trying to teach and can't adapt to their student's needs. Stupid and ignorant people yell when teaching. When their student fails to comprehend a concept or skill, they try to intimidate them into understanding it. How whack is that? I was asked to do the final dives for a class for a friend. He told me that one student just didn't 'get' how to clear her mask, so he was sure she would not pass. He pointed out that he told her she could DIE if she didn't learn how, but to no avail. She still failed at this. Fine. I'm up for the challenge. We did a shore dive into a local spring and the first skill I went to was clearing masks. She couldn't do it, but I watched her closely and then the entire class worked on trim and finishing the class. At the end of the first dive, as everyone was heading to change tanks, I asked her to hold back and took about two minutes to teach her how to clear her mask. That's all it took. She was not only clearing her mask easily after a bit of diagnosis, but she was doing it while being neutral. On the second dive, the first thing we did was mask clearing and I requested everyone do it while neutral. She was the only one to succeed in that. Everyone in the class was surprised when she went from being the single failure to being the shining example.
Clearly, the student was more than capable of learning the skill. Clearly, the initial instructor failed at teaching her such a simple skill. It's my opinion that he lacked the patience and caring needed to teach the skill when presented with a student that didn't automatically "get it". After the second dive and my blessing them as Scuba Divers, she broke down in tears. Shocked, I asked here what the problem was and she told me. The first instructor only yelled at her for her inability to clear. He berated her in front of the other students, made her feel stupid and had convinced her that she was not cut out for diving. No, I didn't throw the first instructor under the bus. No need to: he did that himself. I have to admit that he was completely surprised when I told him that she had passed. His response? "I guess my talk with her finally sank in!" Wow. Double WOW!! I couldn't say a thing after that. I just made sure that I never was available to substitute teach for him. It's just too depressing.
Now about Mel. There are students who feel that any correction constitutes "yelling". I've seen @Wookie's Mel do that over and over again. She's awesome and she usually withholds any comment UNLESS it affects a diver's safety or the collective fun for the group. I've also heard divers suggest that they had just been yelled at by her. I probably should have yelled at them for that, but mostly I just snickered to myself. Yeah, she has a way of using logic to show you just how dumb you are for doing something. Are you offended? Then stop doing stupid sh1t! But she never yells. She simply lets her logic work its magic. Like I said: she's awesome!!!
Often yelling is nothing but an instructor's frustration at not getting their teaching(s) across. That usually means they don't really understand the subject they're trying to teach and can't adapt to their student's needs. Stupid and ignorant people yell when teaching. When their student fails to comprehend a concept or skill, they try to intimidate them into understanding it. How whack is that? I was asked to do the final dives for a class for a friend. He told me that one student just didn't 'get' how to clear her mask, so he was sure she would not pass. He pointed out that he told her she could DIE if she didn't learn how, but to no avail. She still failed at this. Fine. I'm up for the challenge. We did a shore dive into a local spring and the first skill I went to was clearing masks. She couldn't do it, but I watched her closely and then the entire class worked on trim and finishing the class. At the end of the first dive, as everyone was heading to change tanks, I asked her to hold back and took about two minutes to teach her how to clear her mask. That's all it took. She was not only clearing her mask easily after a bit of diagnosis, but she was doing it while being neutral. On the second dive, the first thing we did was mask clearing and I requested everyone do it while neutral. She was the only one to succeed in that. Everyone in the class was surprised when she went from being the single failure to being the shining example.
Clearly, the student was more than capable of learning the skill. Clearly, the initial instructor failed at teaching her such a simple skill. It's my opinion that he lacked the patience and caring needed to teach the skill when presented with a student that didn't automatically "get it". After the second dive and my blessing them as Scuba Divers, she broke down in tears. Shocked, I asked here what the problem was and she told me. The first instructor only yelled at her for her inability to clear. He berated her in front of the other students, made her feel stupid and had convinced her that she was not cut out for diving. No, I didn't throw the first instructor under the bus. No need to: he did that himself. I have to admit that he was completely surprised when I told him that she had passed. His response? "I guess my talk with her finally sank in!" Wow. Double WOW!! I couldn't say a thing after that. I just made sure that I never was available to substitute teach for him. It's just too depressing.
Now about Mel. There are students who feel that any correction constitutes "yelling". I've seen @Wookie's Mel do that over and over again. She's awesome and she usually withholds any comment UNLESS it affects a diver's safety or the collective fun for the group. I've also heard divers suggest that they had just been yelled at by her. I probably should have yelled at them for that, but mostly I just snickered to myself. Yeah, she has a way of using logic to show you just how dumb you are for doing something. Are you offended? Then stop doing stupid sh1t! But she never yells. She simply lets her logic work its magic. Like I said: she's awesome!!!
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Crap, the first part of my post is gone!
Only stupid instructors resort to yelling to get a concept across. It's almost always counterproductive. Not yelling at a student is not "coddling" them. Rather, it's simple abuse that is designed to compensate for an instructor's failure(s). Effective instructors almost never have to raise their voices... only when their student is in imminent danger.
I yelled at a student once. I was underwater. She was about to swim into the boat traffic channel at the Blue Heron Bridge. It was to get her attention, which I did. There was no belittling. No berating. No questioning her or her mother's origins. Just a loud and directed yell to get her attention and get her out of danger. It worked, but I still had failed.
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