Instructors who yell for no reason

[KevinNM]

What about people that you have told 2 times before and know they can do it but are not doing it.
Lets say hand positions or bend in their knees or fin positions. How many times do you pull them aside and give them a warm arm and talk to them before you just shout ' Dave arms out knees bent' that shouting is not angry shouting at dave but is enough to refocus him on his arm position and leg positions

From doing a karate for many years sometimes a student just isn't in the right place mentally for that. They are too focused on other elements of the other things they are doing at the same time or are preparing to do. There are things that literally took me years of occasional repetition of corrections for me to both understand what was going on and apply the correction, but eventually someone will tell me something that they have probably told me many times over a a period of several years and suddenly it all makes sense and I can apply the correction.

For scuba, a gopro is an amazing tool at showing people what they are really doing underwater, which is often not very much like what they think they are doing.

 

[JohnnyC]

Another reason it's not a fair comparison to bring up military training is that, psychological goals aside, people who go through military training know when they sign up that it's going to be that way. I'm pretty sure that's not what the average dive student is expecting.

The average dive student is not taking a cave class. Which is why this discussion is entirely inappropriate for the basic scuba discussion forum. This is why people keep saying that context is so important.

You don't like the way Edd Sorensen teaches? Don't take a cave class from him. Bottom line.

 

[KevinNM]

You don't like the way Edd Sorensen teaches? Don't take a cave class from him. Bottom line.

I've seen divers who completed classes with him and they looked really damn good in the water.

 

[DanielRJones]

Another reason it's not a fair comparison to bring up military training is that, psychological goals aside, people who go through military training know when they sign up that it's going to be that way. I'm pretty sure that's not what the average dive student is expecting.

If I am doing a cave course then it is not an average dive student. Yes I may be safe but my finning could cause a massive issue in a cave. If I am doing a complex course then I want to be torn apart. Every time my buoyancy drops or finning is not perfect I want to be told. Same when I was skydiving and doing free flying in the tunnel. Or training for nationals in fs. If it's not perfect in easy conditions it's not going to be perfect when it is needed. I can see why an instructor would tell but then again it is your money to spend where you want. Personally I would want an instructor that is going to yell at me for every even minor mistake or fault as I would work harder so that I would give him absolutely nothing to shout at me over. I want to learn but I want to be pushed. If I am paying for a course I don't want fun I don't want nice words

 

[The Chairman]

You don't like the way Edd Sorensen teaches? Don't take a cave class from him. Bottom line.

I've never heard nor seen Edd yell. In fact, I've seen him be extremely patient with a completely clueless student. He let the student know he failed and why, but he never yelled. He didn't even raise his voice. I would take a class from Edd in a heartbeat and I've sent students his way because of his patience.

 

[JohnnyC]

I've never heard nor seen Edd yell. In fact, I've seen him be extremely patient with a completely clueless student. He let the student know he failed and why, but he never yelled. He didn't even raise his voice. I would take a class from Edd in a heartbeat and I've sent students his way because of his patience.

Well then there's very obviously a disconnect somewhere in the narrative as Edd is the instructor that the OP is talking about, outed on another forum. Unless there's another "Edd" teaching cave courses in Florida.

 

[scubafanatic]

I suspect many in 'tech' diving go through those classes mainly to be able to show off their fancy new credentials to the plebes (I've got more PHDs than you do...... chest-beating rights). I suspect they would actually feel gypped if they WEREN'T yelled at, it's part of the macho package, and will become their memorable war-stories to share with the plebes, picking up girls, etc.

 

[DanielRJones]

From doing a karate for many years sometimes a student just isn't in the right place mentally for that. They are too focused on other elements of the other things they are doing at the same time or are preparing to do. There are things that literally took me years of occasional repetition of corrections for me to both understand what was going on and apply the correction, but eventually someone will tell me something that they have probably told me many times over a a period of several years and suddenly it all makes sense and I can apply the correction.

For scuba, a gopro is an amazing tool at showing people what they are really doing underwater, which is often not very much like what they think they are doing.

In skydiving our 4way fs coach would film us for debrief but would also slap a that we were not dropping fast enough to stop a block move or shout if we were not keeping arching enough to keep air speed up or turning points to slowly or holding grips for 2 long.
Yes debriefs after the session was calm and collective but small changes needed or things we were doing wrong while in the training session were normally loud and direct and harsh

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I had a student who cried quite often at not being able to do skills (cried 3 times the first 3 hour pool session, twice the second, twice the third,....). It was a real challenge on what to do with him, as he was holding up the class, so I set him aside to work with AI's. The next month, I worked with him 1:1. I still couldn't get him to master the skills. Yelling would have completely destroyed him. I tried to encourage him with "just try again, take a deep breath, and focus on what you need to do". I still haven't figured out what I should have done differently for/with him.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I also wonder about the "yelling" part. Was it actually yelling, screaming, a raised voice, etc. There are times when I have had to up the volume but at the same time watch the tone.

A 15 yr old who was supposed to be paying attention to his buddy/mother as she donned her gear on their OW checkouts. He was doing everything but, and a quick "hey, where's your buddy" at louder than normal tone was needed to get his attention. His dad was louder.

I've also raised my voice in rescue classes to add to the simulation and increase realism.

I've yet to run into a student that did something so unsafe and put another person or themselves in immediate danger, that's the only reason I can think to YELL at a student. That would probably occur in the moment and be more of a gut reaction than berating them.

Anything else would get the over the glasses look that my grandfather on my mom's side gave us. You knew you were in trouble and my sister says I do it just like him.

I do make it clear that when it comes to safety, lax attitudes are not going to fly.
I also just talked to a student who completed Cavern and Intro with Edd. Based on her assessment of the class and of his style, I find it hard to believe he "yelled" at anyone unless they deserved a raised voice approach. They had to have pulled a pretty good stunt to get that.