Is another problem with DAN brewing?

[aquaoren]

but they do cover me... it's just 10 chambers who dont' want to accept
my insurance.

we're losing perspective here. THE WHOLE WORLD will take my DAN insurance,
except for these 10 chambers.... sounds like i'm covered to me.
also, sounds like the problem is not with DAN but with these 10 chambers.

if these chambers want to be weenies and not take my insurance, hey,
i won't go diving near there

that's their problem, not mine

Yeah, just to play devils advocate here, I think that you may not be completely correct.
Those 10 chambers don't have any problems with DAN as a company as they accept all other DAN insurances and a whole bunch of other insurers as well except DAN America insurance.
It appears that the problem may not be with the chamber operator but rather with DAN America insurance.
How comes that DAN America insurance would consider treatment cost unreasonable while DAN Europe for example considers them to be acceptable? Could it be that a big insurance company thinks that they are big enough to pressure a small operator to their knees and arm wrestle them to accept their terms? eyebrow

Bruce, I don't see a reason for any medical facility to be operating under the rules set one-sided by an insurance company.

 

[DandyDon]

How comes that DAN America insurance would consider treatment cost unreasonable while DAN Europe for example considers them to be acceptable? Could it be that a big insurance company thinks that they are big enough to pressure a small operator to their knees and arm wrestle them to accept their terms?

I'll bet those operators were getting 90% of their business from DAN USA customers. DAN Europe was not losing as much to the overpriced fees - not enough to argue about, and was counting on DAN USA to deal with them.

 

[scubaaaronh]

My bottom line: So long as DAN will sell me dive insurance, I'll buy it. So long as the chambers in the listed locales don't play by the rules set by DAN or other chambers are not available there (e.g. Cozumel), I'll dive elsewhere. Its not like there aren't lots of places to dive.

Totally agree.

 

[ItsBruce]

... Could it be that a big insurance company thinks that they are big enough to pressure a small operator to their knees and arm wrestle them to accept their terms? ...

Could be. However, if that is the case, it would be an instance of the big insurance company doing something to benefit the consumer. In that case, it would be ok with me.

Recall that action by large powerful entities (or lots of individuals engaged in concerted action) provides lots of benefits. On the one hand, Walmart's size enables it to buy product at rock bottom prices so that consumers can buy at Walmart for less. At the same time, unions use their size to force employers to pay higher wages to employees.

By the same token, the chamber operators, through their press releases hope to encourage divers to take concerted action against DAN to force DAN to pay what the chamber operators want. The concerted action the operators want is for divers to express concern to DAN and/or change companies.

DAN has not asked divers to take concerted action against the chamber operators in the form of boycotting their dive venues. Since DAN is taking the high road and since its position ultimately benefits me by keeping the cost of its insurance down, I'll side with DAN. Of course, should there be credible evidence that divers are not getting treated or are having to pay for their own treatment without being reimbursed, I reserve the right to change my position and alignment.

 

[aquaoren]

I'll bet those operators were getting 90% of their business from DAN USA customers. DAN Europe was not losing as much to the overpriced fees - not enough to argue about, and was counting on DAN USA to deal with them.

BS, have you ever seen an insurance company that was paying voluntarily more than the absolute minimum they need to pay? BTW, you already determined that the fees are really overpriced? If so, let us know how.
Beside the fact that I strongly doubt that the chambers in Thailand generate 90% of their revenues from DAN USA (unless you want to tell me that Americans are such crappy divers), It's not only DAN Europe that accepts the fees. DAN Southern Africa, DAN SEAP as well as all other dive insurers do so as well.

 

[aquaoren]

Could be. However, if that is the case, it would be an instance of the big insurance company doing something to benefit the consumer. In that case, it would be ok with me.

Recall that action by large powerful entities (or lots of individuals engaged in concerted action) provides lots of benefits. On the one hand, Walmart's size enables it to buy product at rock bottom prices so that consumers can buy at Walmart for less. At the same time, unions use their size to force employers to pay higher wages to employees.

By the same token, the chamber operators, through their press releases hope to encourage divers to take concerted action against DAN to force DAN to pay what the chamber operators want. The concerted action the operators want is for divers to express concern to DAN and/or change companies.

DAN has not asked divers to take concerted action against the chamber operators in the form of boycotting their dive venues. Since DAN is taking the high road and since its position ultimately benefits me by keeping the cost of its insurance down, I'll side with DAN. Of course, should there be credible evidence that divers are not getting treated or are having to pay for their own treatment without being reimbursed, I reserve the right to change my position and alignment.

Insurance companies are not here to do something for their costumer, they are here to generate money and their actions are motivated solely by an attempt to reduce their cost and increase their revenues.
If you believe that the cost of the insurance will be reduced, think again. They will be charging you exactly the same regardless how much less they'll pay and I somehow strongly doubt that it will help reduce the cost to you in the future.
On the other hand, a big company that forces someone to work below their cost will in the end cause it to go out of business. In this case it would possibly mean less chambers that would be able to offer their services and this is certainly not something that the dive community can be interested in, or?

 

[redacted]

I'll bet those operators were getting 90% of their business from DAN USA customers. DAN Europe was not losing as much to the overpriced fees - not enough to argue about, and was counting on DAN USA to deal with them.

So, if a set of chamber service providers is going to take on the chamber service insurance providers in an attempt to move the fees schedule in their favor, why would they start with the big insurer rather than tackle the smaller guys first? I don't know what the answer is here. I'm just saying that the logical case that some are making that SSS must be the bad guy in this seems to have a few leaks. I still suspect that this problem may be coming from DAN America's insurance underwriter who might have both DAN and SSS over a barrel.

 

[ItsBruce]

I'd never suggest insurance companies do anything with the intent of benefitting anyone but themselves. However, sometimes in benefitting themselves, they do benefit others. I think this is such an instance. As for the price of insurance, logic says that if claims costs go up, so to does the premium.

 

[DandyDon]

So, if a set of chamber service providers is going to take on the chamber service insurance providers in an attempt to move the fees schedule in their favor, why would they start with the big insurer rather than tackle the smaller guys first? I don't know what the answer is here. I'm just saying that the logical case that some are making that SSS must be the bad guy in this seems to have a few leaks. I still suspect that this problem may be coming from DAN America's insurance underwriter who might have both DAN and SSS over a barrel.

Don't you think that the smaller insurance companies have been willing to pay what DAN has, and the money grabbing chambers have to take on DAN first.

Lot's of good posts here, and - thank god we have SB to discuss and examine this challenge, but I really like these last two from another thread...

I just renewed our DAN coverage with full confidence. DAN has responded in several places around the net that they will cover everyone regardless. They'll forward money to you or send it directly to your credit card...whatever it takes to get you treated.

And BTW.....the owner of the chambers that is causing all the problems has even stated that do one will be left on the sidewalk untreated.

To many dramatics for me. I'll go with the reputation I know. DAN has always stood by it's divers and I have no doubt they will continue to do so. My money gladly went back to DAN this year.

If you have a problem.....Who ya gonna call?? PADI?? Dive Assure???

DAN is the place. Period.

 

[redacted]

Don't you think that the smaller insurance companies have been willing to pay what DAN has, and the money grabbing chambers have to take on DAN first.

Lot's of good posts here, and - thank god we have SB to discuss and examine this challenge, but I really like these last two from another thread...

I doubt if DAN, the DAN America insurance underwriter, or the chamber are about to reveil any information they don't have to. And with alomst all parties under different governments, I doubt if any regulation has been or will be very effective. I have no reason to doubt claims of excessive or fraudulent charges or under payment, delayed payments, and attempted treatment dictates by the insurance underwriter.

I think if I were a chamber operator looking to increase fees, I'd go after the little guy first. I think that because I know my Tri-Care insurance (a big guy) gets away with paying less than probably every other insurer. To the point where many doctors in my area will not accept tricare patients on other than an emergency basis. I hope Dee is right and the chambers work the same way. However, even in the USA, we occasionally hear of underinsured victims being shuffled from one ER to another.

I'm not really sure who is threatening to hold me hostage if I take a hit but I'm pretty sure someone is. And I am just not inclined to pay them to do it. (My tricare is free so I use it as a secondary to purchased primary insurance.)

I agree, the discussion is good and helpful. I'm still debating and researching, but the point made about the 1-800 24/7 availability of DAN may just be the decisive point.