Is it time to sink the CESA?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'm still curious as to how instructors think they should be teaching CESAs, as they are the ones at risk. While my jury is still out, I'm leaning towards that CESAs need to be taught in some way. People need to remember that there are other options besides fully vertical and fully horizontal: 45 degrees to the surface for example. As I said before, doing so in the pool isn't perfect, but even in a course with max ratios, doable in confined water.

 

[TMHeimer]

I'm still curious as to how instructors think they should be teaching CESAs, as they are the ones at risk. While my jury is still out, I'm leaning towards that CESAs need to be taught in some way. People need to remember that there are other options besides fully vertical and fully horizontal: 45 degrees to the surface for example. As I said before, doing so in the pool isn't perfect, but even in a course with max ratios, doable in confined water.

I agree. How deep would the pool have to be at a 45 degree angle up to get the feeling of lung air expanding? OTOH maybe that's not really all that important-- I don't get that feeling in OW anyway, though I know it's happening.
I suppose doing it from 12' would be less of a concern for instructors doing many in a row.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I agree. How deep would the pool have to be at a 45 degree angle up to get the feeling of lung air expanding? OTOH maybe that's not really all that important-- I don't get that feeling in OW anyway, though I know it's happening.
I suppose doing it from 12' would be less of a concern for instructors doing many in a row.

There is no feeling of lungs expanding. That's the problem. We didn't evolve with nerves there as being land dwellers, there was no need for such feedback for survival.

I see the 45 degree angle in a pool (say 12 feet deep, 45 degrees means a swimming distance of about 17 feet) as a compromise for the instructor's health and giving students the ability to continuously exhale due to expanding gas as they head to the surface.

I agree that the distance isn't that great. Slightly lower angles, no less than say 30 degrees extends the time. I'm not a believer in horizontal due to the lack of gas expansion and people often running out of air.

 

[TMHeimer]

Right. Guess I meant that you can get more air to exhale as you ascend. Haven't really noticed that either, but know it's there.
I can go along with this pool idea, though I'd still practice it on my own in OW. That could be something that's explained to students.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Right. Guess I meant that you can get more air to exhale as you ascend. Haven't really noticed that either, but know it's there.
I can go along with this pool idea, though I'd still practice it on my own in OW. That could be something that's explained to students.

Tell me how you feel after having a student fail to perform the skill correctly in open water and you repeat it 7 times straight. Didn't happen to me, I was the DM. The instructor felt simply awful afterwards.

 

[boulderjohn]

I agree with the diagonal CESA in the pool being better than the fully horizontal CESA, but here is the problem--lots of people do not have access to such a pool.

My standards-shattering OW instruction included the pool work being done in a pool with a maximum depth of 5 feet. If there was a deeper pool in the area, I don't know about it. When I did my IE, the only pool in the remote vicinity was also 5 feet deep. (I have been to that location many times and know the area well.) Since I was certified, I have been to countless resort areas with resident scuba instruction, and pretty much all pools are a maximum of 5 feet deep.

That makes it hard to meet other standards in the OW class, especially hovering, and I am sure that in many of those cases, like mine, they are indeed not met.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I agree with the diagonal CESA in the pool being better than the fully horizontal CESA, but here is the problem--lots of people do not have access to such a pool.

My standards-shattering OW instruction included the pool work being done in a pool with a maximum depth of 5 feet. If there was a deeper pool in the area, I don't know about it. When I did my IE, the only pool in the remote vicinity was also 5 feet deep. (I have been to that location many times and know the area well.) Since I was certified, I have been to countless resort areas with resident scuba instruction, and pretty much all pools are a maximum of 5 feet deep.

That makes it hard to meet other standards in the OW class, especially hovering, and I am sure that in many of those cases, like mine, they are indeed not met.

Are there any lakes in your area that are appropriate some part of the year (i.e., meet the definition of pool like conditions of clarity, calmness, and depth - fortunately temperature is not there)?

 

[Esprise Me]

Would it help at all if the agencies, in addition to allowing DMs to do some of the CESAs, limited the number of CESAs any instructor (or DM etc.) was allowed to do on any one day? Or further limited the number of students they could have in a class? Would that ease some of the competitive pressure between different dive shops, allowing them to charge more for smaller classes, spread training out over a longer time, and otherwise limit the strain on the instructors without losing business to the dive shop down the street? Or would it just mean everyone loses business, period, because there's a substantial chunk of people who will get certified if the course is under $X (which can only be accomplished with the current way of doing things) and will find another hobby if it's more? Or is there another reason that would be a terrible idea?

 

[boulderjohn]

Are there any lakes in your area that are appropriate some part of the year (i.e., meet the definition of pool like conditions of clarity, calmness, and depth - fortunately temperature is not there)?

I was not talking so much about my own area as I was talking about resorts around the world, but as long as you are asking, yes, pool access is a problem for me as well.

I teach tech diving nearly exclusively now, and pool access is part of the reason for that. I teach tech diving as an independent because none of the shops are willing to make it a part of the program because they are afraid they will lose money on it and will not invest in the necessary infrastructure, etc. All the reasonably local shops either have their own pools or rent time at a local recreation center. None will share time with an independent who is not part of their program--can't be helping the competition, can we? In theory, the local recreational centers will rent time for me, but that is in theory only. Most of them will not even return my calls if I try to schedule time, and if I am able to get ahold of them, they either are unable to find free time for me, or they will charge me so much for my time that the cost will be prohibitive for my class of a couple students. You have to have a fair number of paying students to make that cost doable.

The local open water areas are reservoirs with very silty bottoms. OW classes are done in their with platforms, which really doesn't work as pool-like conditionis. Visibility can be a couple of feet.

So I pretty much stick to advanced recreational, specialty, and tech classes that do not require a confined water location.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Would it help at all if the agencies, in addition to allowing DMs to do some of the CESAs, limited the number of CESAs any instructor (or DM etc.) was allowed to do on any one day? Or further limited the number of students they could have in a class? Would that ease some of the competitive pressure between different dive shops, allowing them to charge more for smaller classes, spread training out over a longer time, and otherwise limit the strain on the instructors without losing business to the dive shop down the street? Or would it just mean everyone loses business, period, because there's a substantial chunk of people who will get certified if the course is under $X (which can only be accomplished with the current way of doing things) and will find another hobby if it's more? Or is there another reason that would be a terrible idea?

AFAIK, only PADI requires OW CESAs. In general, as I don't want to sound like I'm just bashing PADI, as I bash the mainstream agencies in general, is that no one wants to do anything that will cut a penny in revenue. No one wants to take risk with dramatic changes to their curriculum.

We must remember that in many tropical locations you have one instructor with 8 students. How such instructors remain in standards with CESAs is beyond me. I suspect students are left at the surface when CESAs are performed.

No agency tells dive shops/instructors what to charge for courses. They don't care. They give discounts for materials/cost of processing certifications to higher volume shops/instructors. But in the end, they get a set amount per student, so they want as many certified students as possible. They do look the other way (the exception being the ones that provide objective performance standards) when it comes to how instructors implement the standards.

The business aspect of any discussion cannot be ignored. However, I believe that this thread is about protecting the instructors health (about which agencies and dive ops don't care) at the same time giving the appropriate training to students.

I'm still on the fence about the CESA at all, as I'm consulting with a doctor who is also a tec instructor with hyperbaric training (anyone who guesses doesn't get a cigar however). I need more medical facts.