I've always wanted to learn how to use a rebreather!

[caveseeker7]

beester, I understand your thought and that it's not ill will. CCRs diving does carry a few additional risks (such as a caustic cocktail), and increase some of the risks inherent to diving (hypoxia, hyperoxia, hypercapnia). The biggest issue, IMHO, is the diver's state of mind though. Any RB requires much more diligence and attention before, during and after the dive. There are protocols in place that need to be adhered to, skills that are required and need to become second nature, in order to use them safely. And there is always complacency lurking, and frequently it kills.

There have been endless debates wether one should be a very experienced, very skilled, very advanced technical diver before one turns to rebreathers, especially CCRs. That is the old way, when there were few RBs available, at horrent price ($15K+), and only divers explored on long and deep dives needed them as gas management simply started heading towards imossibility. Sure, there were always a few film makers and scientists using them, but they were an even smaller group. With the increase in mixed gas open circuit diving, the increase of ... cave and wreck tourist (for the lack of a better word - vs the explorers, the guys and gals that measure and map) CCRs became more popular.

As mentioned before, media and internet spread the word, making it all even more accessible.

Many people orient themselves by what the extremes are, by equipment and skills used in exploration diving. Doesn't matter if it's a metal backplate/wing and long hose 1st stage, a scooter, a cannister light, or a rebreather.

The longer and more advanced your OC diving has been, the more OC thinking will be ingrained, the more skills have to be unlearned. It also means that the once skilled, experienced, advanced diver is back in the ego-shattering position of newbie. A situation frequently not handled well, leading to dives past the RB skill- and experience level. And just as many accidents. That's the downside of that old school of thought.

Again, that state of mind.


Sam, in regards to getting started, I recommend doing some research on the subject, reading "Mastering Rebreathers" by Bozanic, "Learner's Guide to Rebreathers" by Pyle, to get the background info. Should give an idea if RBs are worth pursuing for you and your diving.

All along you can come here and chat, ask questions ... .

Download the manuals of units you're intrested in, many are available online. See if you can do a rebreather intro. Advanced Diver Magazine holds them several times a year in various locations, frequently in FL. Nice as you get to try several units, the events are usually sponsored by Jetsam (KISS CCRs), Silent Diving (Inspo and Evo CCRs) and Dive Rite (Optima CCR), sometimes also Innerspace (Meg CCRs). In addition, many instructors offer them on the unit(s) they train on. That'll give you an idea how they actually feel, breathing feels quite different, your bouyancy will be shot, but all in all they're good fun I always recommend.

 

[veriqster]

I understand... but why? Because you're into technology? Because you want to dive deep... because you want to dive extremely long... because you feel that the bubbles from OC are interfering with your camera work / scaring away the fish... etc etc

Being into technology... trying to get to know the intricate details of sophisticated equipment like that is fun... it also would make you a better OC diver because when you understand the physics behind it... it will aid you in your normal diving too (partial pressures, buyancy, physical dangers, etc)... I understand this...

But your original thread title implies that you want to learn this (I've always wanted to learn how to use a rebreather). This I do not understand...

We are both new divers... I started diving in february of this year... and have now about 80 dives in. I got to know rebreathers because of the above mentioned guy... I just asked him about it ... and he told me more about his particular ccr rebreather. So like you I'm interested...but I can not see myself for the first 3 to 400 dives start doing this... because I'll be too busy exploring all that there is left to explore on OC... not because of dangers (through training you can significantly lessen those)... but because I will be able to do whatever I've planned on OC much more easily then on rebreathing. When I'm no longer able to do most of my diving easy on OC then I'll seriously consider rebreathing... but that 's still a long way...

So what I wanted to know from you was... what are your diving plans in the near future that you are considering rebreathing diving already?

Let me throw in my 2 bubles:
I got some standards that i expect Every diver to live up to, I DO NOT dive with anybody that does not.
I'l try to make it short:
1. This is a free country, if you decide to dive, to skydive, to ride a bike, to race or to fly it's entirely up to you, as long as you pose no threat to the society it's nobodies bussiness what you decide to do with your resources, time and life in general.
2. Each and every of us is informed and responsable enough to take decisions on his own behalf (unless declared overwise by a court of law).

Now starting from the above stated I'll recomend that:
You can't cary your "****" in and out of the water with no assistance - don't dive.
You don't know how your equipment works, how it may fail and kill you - don't dive.
You don't have an emergency plan, a backup plan and a backup for the latest - don't dive.
You have no means to make sure you can assend safely from the planned depth of the dive - don't dive.
You rely on somebody else for support, backup or redundancy - don't dive.
You expect somebody else to take responsability for your decisions or actions - don't dive.
You have a "bad gut feeling" about the day, site, conditions, divebuddy, etc - don't dive.

Water is inherently dangerous. You can drown in a SPOON of water - if you are not trained / equiped /comfortable well enough to ensure your own safety then stay away from it or at least stick to suntanning near water.

I know I WILL get a lot of coments on this one (even people that dive with me say that I need to take easy, to somehow restrain this paranoid approach), especially since it brakes ALL the rules of training that I have been subjected to. I know that training according to these ideals would be probitive both pricewise and timewise, I know that I am lucky enough to feel better in the water then on land since the earliest times that I can remember, I recognise that even people that see water for the first time in their lives have a right to enjoy the marvelous underwater world, BUT, there are inherent dangers, riscs, costs associated with this (you don't expect to enjoy a Metalica concert for free, do you???).
If one has the resources and is willing to spend them to dive then the choice of place, time and equipment is completely up to him / her.
Leave alone the skill issue - most of the OW C-card holders have no bussiness anywere close to the water anyway. If you are willing to learn and have at least halth of the average intelect you will be a VERY good diver - just take your time - get an instructor that "teaches to fail" instead of "teaching to certify", take your time in the POOL, reread those highschool phisics and chemistry books (even better if you went to college and took some extra classes), brush your math skills (especially if you plan on rebreather), get some technical training (holding a screwdriver or a wrench is not rocket science and if you got the money to shell on an good eCCR your IQ is at least high as that of the person that services your gear anyway).
I know divers without C-cards that I will do a deco dive with any time and, I know divers that can't do a controled ascent / descent / need a line to get to / of the bottom and a clear / rocky bottom to dive (so they don't stab themselves into something / bury themselves into mud) and are holdingg at least an AOW. (regards to some of my AOW classmates - I love you but I love myself to much to dive with you).
Now make up your mind, consider the costs, benefits, personal prefences and GO FOR IT. It took me 2 years to put toghether the resources to start diving (college is not sheep nowadays but I guess that is no news to any of you, is it???) and it's going to take me another 2-3 to design / build / test / get somfortable with a eCCR but, I WILL do it regardsless if any or ALL of you think that I am unreasonable, foolish, miinformed, megalomanic (unless I get access to some information that will make me change my point of view) and that is the beauty of democracy - I am free to do what i decide to do (furthermore underwater).
P.S. to the instructor "crowd" out there - can you please stop certifying every suicidal maniac out there, just so the Government doesn't have to regulate my hobbie, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.P.S. to the "suicidal maniac crowd" - hanging or shooting yourself is cheeper, quicker, less painfull / stressfull, why do you choose to dive????????????????

 

[Jimmer]

However to use your analogy. You could ask about motorsports but don't expect to be taken seriously if you ask... where do I take a course to drive your competition rally car. No that takes alot of luck, and you have to climb a ladder step by step and on each step you'll need to prove yourself!

Would you like a list of competition driving schools? What's your flavour, Open Wheel, Kart, Rally, Stock car, Superbike? I have a race background, and how do you think people get started? They take a competition drivers course then start racing whatever class of vehicle they can afford/are interested in. Some buy or build a race car, others hire one. There are TONS of operations that you can hand a cheque to, and then "arrive and drive".

P.S. here is one of the dozens of rally schools out there Rallyschool.co.uk - rally school for rally driving

Jim

 

[Jimmer]

Now make up your mind, consider the costs, benefits, personal prefences and GO FOR IT. It took me 2 years to put toghether the resources to start diving (college is not sheep nowadays but I guess that is no news to any of you, is it???) and it's going to take me another 2-3 to design / build / test / get somfortable with a eCCR but, I WILL do it regardsless if any or ALL of you think that I am unreasonable, foolish, miinformed, megalomanic (unless I get access to some information that will make me change my point of view) and that is the beauty of democracy - I am free to do what i decide to do (furthermore underwater).
P.S. to the instructor "crowd" out there - can you please stop certifying every suicidal maniac out there, just so the Government doesn't have to regulate my hobbie, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.P.S. to the "suicidal maniac crowd" - hanging or shooting yourself is cheeper, quicker, less painfull / stressfull, why do you choose to dive????????????????

 

[beester]

I agree that everybody has a democratic choice to decide for him/herselve what direction to take and in what way to enjoy diving.

Although maybe this is already a bit of an illusion (not to my liking but it's there sometimes). I know shops that will refuse filling nitrox without you showing your cert card. I know others that will fill everything as long as it's oxygen clean... and then there are others that just plainly fill everything. I've read (of course no personal experience) of rebreather manufacturers closing down parts of software (trimix functionality) unless you had sufficient experience on the unit or could show trimix /extended range certification.

Next to that you've got of course insurance. Luckely there is no scuba-police prohibiting you from diving with whatever means you desire... however if something would happen be sure that your insurance will be looking very hard for some anomalities (like not having certain certs, or exceeding your depthrating, exceeding max pp0² or ppN², or or)... and yes also DAN will do so. So in a fact there may already be some sort of scuba-police... insurance.

Back on topic... I'm very very glad that there is such an abbundance of information available over a topic like rebreathers... nowadays every interested diver can easily get the necessary information and learn from experienced colleagues. Gone are the days of 'voodoogas' where only happy few knew the ins and outs of it.

So believe me... my real feeling is not one of 'pointing a finger at the OP... what you are doing is wrong'.... It realy is more a feeling of intrigue to the OP... why you would already (so early in your diving career) consider this.


Specifically since rebreathers (even entry level scr) are still quite expensive (taking in account training) compaired with OC... and you would normaly be fully able to appreciate the underwaterworld on OC and would need to stretch quite far at this point in your diving career to get to it's limits. Unless you want to start full blown ceiling diving (deco, cave, wreck) already.

Cave 7... I appreciate your input in this and understand that it could be easier to learn straight away rebreather diving instead of first diving OC and then have to relearn (a bit the same situation as first diving wet then dry instead of starting with dry straight away). Thanks for the documentation sources btw.

Cheers all

 

[beester]

P.S. to the instructor "crowd" out there - can you please stop certifying every suicidal maniac out there, just so the Government doesn't have to regulate my hobbie, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.P.S. to the "suicidal maniac crowd" - hanging or shooting yourself is cheeper, quicker, less painfull / stressfull, why do you choose to dive????????????????

Completely agree!

 

[caveseeker7]

veriqster, shooting oneself is just gonna bring more restrictons
to those who enjoy living as well as shooting.

Also, judging by your spelling, you paid too much for college.
Either that or you need to chill out, dude.

 

[veriqster]

veriqster, shooting oneself is just gonna bring more restrictons
to those who enjoy living as well as shooting.

Also, judging by your spelling, you paid too much for college.
Either that or you need to chill out, dude.

Unfortunately, plus to my full time college I have to keep working 60 hours a week to achieve what I have in mind, so spelling is the last on my list of priorities (unless you are talking about the earning an A in classes - which I did, do and plan to continue with it).

When I PAY OUT OF MY OWN POCKET to do a 100+ fsw dive for my certif course and we abort it at 95 because some dude was slow enough in his descent to suck 80cf of air (part of it on inflating / deflating his BC) I see no reason to chill, especially if you do not provide a FREE opportinity to actually dive again.

As i said, if you a suicidal please choose something else, PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

P.S. Puting a bullet into a matchbox from 100 yards (meters) was the only way to get a 5 (equivalent of an A+) at Military Training in former USSR. Unfortunately the subject was NOT optinal and the ownership of guns was strictly regulated and enforced (even "sport type" or compressed air ones and I my dad was not positioned well enough for me to indulge myself more often then at school); so, take my word for it FREEDOM IS GOOD but it assumes people have "common sence" (no offence, but some obviously don't).

P.P.S. diving and shooting - seams like you have a LOT of self control and common sense + you are lucky enough not to deal with those that don't; if there's a secret to achieving this please share - I bet a lot of us WILL APPRECIATE.

 

[Mr.X]

Unfortunately, plus to my full time college I have to keep working 60 hours a week to achieve what I have in mind, so spelling is the last on my list of priorities (unless you are talking about the earning an A in classes - which I did, do and plan to continue with it).

When I PAY OUT OF MY OWN POCKET to do a 100+ fsw dive for my certif course and we abort it at 95 because some dude was slow enough in his descent to suck 80cf of air (part of it on inflating / deflating his BC) I see no reason to chill, especially if you do not provide a FREE opportinity to actually dive again.

As i said, if you a suicidal please choose something else, PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

P.S. Puting a bullet into a matchbox from 100 yards (meters) was the only way to get a 5 (equivalent of an A+) at Military Training in former USSR. Unfortunately the subject was NOT optinal and the ownership of guns was strictly regulated and enforced (even "sport type" or compressed air ones and I my dad was not positioned well enough for me to indulge myself more often then at school); so, take my word for it FREEDOM IS GOOD but it assumes people have "common sence" (no offence, but some obviously don't).

P.P.S. diving and shooting - seams like you have a LOT of self control and common sense + you are lucky enough not to deal with those that don't; if there's a secret to achieving this please share - I bet a lot of us WILL APPRECIATE.

What are you saying? I teach college level courses on occasion. ELA proficiency (English Language Arts) is always a priority. If you are angry at some individual "killing" a dive you should take that up with the instructor in charge. Additionally, in the course of your dive career you will find occasions where dives are aborted. It happens. It's not a perfect world.

Rebreathers are typically passive machines. Put them into the wrong hands and they can become an issue. A similar situation can be found with drivers who text message while behind the wheel. Drivers and divers like this will always spoil your day.


X

 

[Robert Thompson]

Ok, I've been teaching for over twelve years now and I have to say that I've seen divers that after 10 years of diving don't belong on a rebreather, and don't belong in tek. I've seen divers after a few months of diving and the proper training that could easily go either route. You can't blanket every diver because rebreathers scare you. I would take your comments more seriously beester if you were certified CCR and had some experience. I'm sorry if I am offending you, thats really not my point. And yes, training today is scary. I've seen instructors I would think twice about letting out of open water, and I have had to rescue several openwater certified divers because they were confused about how to operate their equipment. But do not blame the equipment, the instructor is the one who needs to evaluate his student before he signs that card, and not sign it if they aren't ready. Secondly the diver themselves has to take responsibility for their actions. Don't exceed your training.