Solved: LGBTQIA people. Is there a need for a sub-forum?

[El Hefe 612]

Okay… First, I know I'm new here. Second, I'm genuinely curious. And third, I read the entire 18-page thread of the "LGBTQ Divers?" question. As a openly gay, married man I would love to have a place to connect with other gay men, women, and like-minded individuals to discuss dive travel opportunities, to find dive buddies without having to worry about whether or not they might have a problem with me, and to feel comfortable talking about things that might impact us.


If possible, I'd like to have a board created under Non-Geographic Clubs called:


LGBTQIA Divers and Their Friends


I have spent the past week-and-a-half searching the internet (and this board) for such clubs, and I was surprised how lacking they were. It's been six years since the original question was posted in the thread referenced above. I know if I'm interested, that there are probably many others who would be too, but they may just be afraid to ask. Many of the responses in the thread above were not very understanding of what it is like living as an LGBTQIA individual in a predominantly heteronormative global society. Having such a space is not about excluding anyone, it's about having space where we don't have to worry about being who we are and can focus on what we love - diving (among many other things).


Thanks!

 

[RayfromTX]

How does one's sexuality make their diving any different? The same could be said for race or religion. To me they are all irrelevant when it comes to diving.

Perhaps they should be and yet they are not because often society won't let them be. I suspect there will be questions asked such as these.

"My husband and I are planning a trip to the UAE to dive. What should we expect regarding local laws? If it is discovered that we are gay, will we be arrested? What dive op is safest?"

"I am in Georgia and looking for a friendly dive op within driving distance of my home. Any thoughts?"

"My girlfriend and I started diving last year and we are often pestered by single guys that find us attractive. Are there any LGB diving groups near Toronto? It would be nice to avoid the unwelcome attention. We are just here to dive."

"I was at a dive op in Cozumel last month and my partner and I got the stink eye from a couple on the boat. We don't want to be rude. What is the best response so everyone on the boat is comfortable. Are some ops there more supportive than others?"

"Any suggestions for a good place to dive in the Keys? We'd like to avoid the drama"

"We were on the boat last weekend and some other people on the boat were making rude comments and jokes. I felt they were just trying to mess with us. It ruined the experience for us and made me want to give up diving. Has anyone else experienced this?"

I'm a hetero male. I'm guessing. I am at the same disadvantage that you are when you say. "To me they are all irrelevant when it comes to diving" The key words there are "to you" they are irrelevant. Of course they are. You don't have to live with the stigma that society has attached to how you were born.

I live with the benefits of being a tall white male with blue eyes and blonde hair. I was told last week that I looked presidential for God's sake. I have experienced being dirt poor and discriminated against as a result. I strive to be empathetic towards those that experience discrimination in any of it's forms. I understand that I am in no position to question someone else's need or desire for a space where they and their experiences are understood.

 

[Blasto]

"My husband and I are planning a trip to the UAE to dive. What should we expect regarding local laws? If it is discovered that we are gay, will we be arrested? What dive op is safest?"

Well, that's a good point - that is still a problem.

I have experienced being dirt poor

How so? Too few dives for an instructor...

 

[kafkaland]

I've seen it in other places and other contexts - subforums on controversial issues do occasionally draw unwanted (no quote marks) attention from certain people who come to such a forum for no other reason than to bash it.

And the moderators can take care of that. I'm actually impressed with the quality of the moderation on Scubaboard. Plenty of good and often heated discussion. But a mod steps in when it's over the line.

 

[diver0008]

Haha, serves me right for trying..I addressed all of this in my reply that you ignored. Count me out of the dead horse beating.

Sorry, I must have missed it. This thread has a lot of pages; could you please tell me which page and/or post number it is. Thank-you.

 

[diver0008]

Perhaps they should be and yet they are not because often society won't let them be. I suspect there will be questions asked such as these.

"My husband and I are planning a trip to the UAE to dive. What should we expect regarding local laws? If it is discovered that we are gay, will we be arrested? What dive op is safest?"

"I am in Georgia and looking for a friendly dive op within driving distance of my home. Any thoughts?"

"My girlfriend and I started diving last year and we are often pestered by single guys that find us attractive. Are there any LGB diving groups near Toronto? It would be nice to avoid the unwelcome attention. We are just here to dive."

"I was at a dive op in Cozumel last month and my partner and I got the stink eye from a couple on the boat. We don't want to be rude. What is the best response so everyone on the boat is comfortable. Are some ops there more supportive than others?"

"Any suggestions for a good place to dive in the Keys? We'd like to avoid the drama"

"We were on the boat last weekend and some other people on the boat were making rude comments and jokes. I felt they were just trying to mess with us. It ruined the experience for us and made me want to give up diving. Has anyone else experienced this?"

I'm a hetero male. I'm guessing. I am at the same disadvantage that you are when you say. "To me they are all irrelevant when it comes to diving" The key words there are "to you" they are irrelevant. Of course they are. You don't have to live with the stigma that society has attached to how you were born.

I live with the benefits of being a tall white male with blue eyes and blonde hair. I was told last week that I looked presidential for God's sake. I have experienced being dirt poor and discriminated against as a result. I strive to be empathetic towards those that experience discrimination in any of it's forms. I understand that I am in no position to question someone else's need or desire for a space where they and their experiences are understood.

Great reply. Makes things clearer. Thank-you. Side question: are there a lot of dive ops that cater to gay people, exclusively or otherwise?

 

[kafkaland]

Great reply. Makes things clearer. Thank-you. Side question: are there a lot of dive ops that cater to gay people, exclusively or otherwise?

Not so much dedicated dive ops, but there are gay dive groups or clubs who then contact dive or charter ops and ask then if they are cool with a gay group. Usually the answer is yes you're welcome, but if there is any hemming and hewing or equivocation, they move on.

 

[diver0008]

I am at the same disadvantage that you are when you say. "To me they are all irrelevant when it comes to diving" The key words there are "to you" they are irrelevant. Of course they are. You don't have to live with the stigma that society has attached to how you were born.

No, what I meant, and sorry for any confusion, is that to me, it does not matter if someone that I am diving with is gay or not. Likewise posting here in the forums. Certainly the issues we all face in life are relevant to each of us, but what people do behind closed doors is none of my business - irrelevant.

 

[diver0008]

Not so much dedicated dive ops, but there are gay dive groups or clubs who then contact dive or charter ops and ask then if they are cool with a gay group. Usually the answer is yes you're welcome, but if there is any hemming and hewing or equivocation, they move on.

Thanks for the reply. As this thread is probably nearing (or already past) its best before date, I'll pose another side question if there are no objections; I have found scuba divers almost without exception to be very nice, peaceful and free people. Do gay people get unwelcoming feelings when diving in mainly straight groups?

 

[kafkaland]

Thanks for the reply. As this thread is probably nearing (or already past) its best before date, I'll pose another side question if there are no objections; I have found scuba divers almost without exception to be very nice, peaceful and free people. Do gay people get unwelcoming feelings when diving in mainly straight groups?

Sure, happy to answer this, from my personal perspective. Individual experiences may be differnet, though. Generally, I have no problems on dive boats or in mostly straight dive clubs. A friendly bunch where sexual orientation doesn't matter, 99% of the time. Better than high school locker rooms and I'd also say I've heard less homophobic innuendo than misogynistic talk. And yet that 1% hits a very sore spot, at least for me. A lifetime of experiences, usually in a non-scuba context, that can each be dismissed as one-off leave me looking over my shoulder a bit. Examples are checking in at a hotel, when we had reserved a king bed, just to be told by the clerk when he saw that it's two guys that he had only rooms with separate beds available. Or, when I just put a small rainbow flag up at my mailbox, getting shouted epithets at me, from someone in a car decked out with Jesus stickers no less. Or, having to argue with my employer about certain benefits for my partner, pre marriage-equality. So now there is something ingrained in me that I'm always looking over my shoulder, and in my mind possibly take an innocent or ignorant remark the wrong way, on a dive boat or otherwise. And that's where gay clubs or charters come in - I feel like I can let my guard down more. But I won't let that get in my way of diving with any other group or charter that has some exciting diving to offer.

 

[Gareth J]

Sure, happy to answer this, from my personal perspective. Individual experiences may be differnet, though. Generally, I have no problems on dive boats or in mostly straight dive clubs. A friendly bunch where sexual orientation doesn't matter, 99% of the time. Better than high school locker rooms and I'd also say I've heard less homophobic innuendo than misogynistic talk. And yet that 1% hits a very sore spot, at least for me. A lifetime of experiences, usually in a non-scuba context, that can each be dismissed as one-off leave me looking over my shoulder a bit. Examples are checking in at a hotel, when we had reserved a king bed, just to be told by the clerk when he saw that it's two guys that he had only rooms with separate beds available. Or, when I just put a small rainbow flag up at my mailbox, getting shouted epithets at me, from someone in a car decked out with Jesus stickers no less. Or, having to argue with my employer about certain benefits for my partner, pre marriage-equality. So now there is something ingrained in me that I'm always looking over my shoulder, and in my mind possibly take an innocent or ignorant remark the wrong way, on a dive boat or otherwise. And that's where gay clubs or charters come in - I feel like I can let my guard down more. But I won't let that get in my way of diving with any other group or charter that has some exciting diving to offer.

I think there are issues in wider society across a wide range of issues, sexuality, race, and religion barely touching the tip of the iceberg.
Some countries, are more enlightened than others. I would not book a room with a king size bed for myself and partner in some arab countries, but would have no concerns in Switzerland.
Even countries that are more enlightened have conservative attitudes when booking a double room if you are not married might be consider inadvisable. From my experience California would be ok, other states it may well be ill advised.

You point about rainbow flag on the mailbox, could equally apply to you if it was a political banner, or other indication of a particular view or belief. I don't believe the reaction you mention to this is acceptable, but it is a truth of society, some will target people with views that conflict with there own, passively or aggressively.

Your other issue relating to benefits etc are not just related just to the LGBTQIA community. Having lost my partner recently I have no rights in law. Any pensions, benefits etc have to be contested. Whilst society has changed, the law is taking time to catch up.

My main point is a lot of the issues you mention above effect those of us who are not part of the LGBTQIA community, its the issue of sexuality that differs. Some of us make make inappropriate comments through ignorance or a lack of understanding. I would much rather have the opportunity to learn, than be excluded and lose that opportunity to learn.
There are people I would choose to avoid, not because of a particular religious, sexual, political, etc view, but because they are unpleasant individuals, what ever cloth they cover themselves in.

Whilst I don't have an objection to a sub forum, I see it as regressive rather than progressive. In the same way as I see white only clubs or organisations, black only, chinese only, female only, male only, etc.
Being inclusive breaks down barriers, reduces ignorance and develops understanding - not always agreement, but understanding.

Gareth