Life for 1 vs. Death for 2

[danvolker]

While I agree with you 100% Dan, there is no dive me or anyone i would ever consider diving with would be in this situation it is not to say it would never happen. Caves and Wrecks being a prime example as plenty of divers get in over their heads when it comes to penetration it would not be to hard to assume that at some point a diver/group of divers would come upon someone who was in trouble and the diver/team did not have the means to get all divers out alive and would have to make this choice.

In a perfect world where everyone uses their head before diving this would never be a problem...but in that world only people with cave cards would be in cave...etc.

I am not going to say if I come across a dive group unknown to me, and they are having a clusterfu&*%, and there is a catastrophic danger occurring, likely to kill some of the divers....and potentially the rescuer....I would consider if there is a safe way to rescue the diver(s) in question.

My direct and unshaking responsibility is to MY buddy or buddies.
It is NOT to every diver underwater, a large number being "Rule Number One" violations.
The buddy scenario is what this post is about....that is all I am throwing the BS flag to.

 

[FuzzyNutz]

Dan, I think you're insight is something most of us will agree with, and the accident I describe is what makes it that way. But do remember, many great and well-respected divers are no longer with us for various reasons. Things happen.

With this thread, I'm not getting so much at how it can be avoided or how it won't or shouldn't happen... but what would the human in you do if you were faced with this situation. There's obviously no right answer, just a morbidly 'fun' topic to entertain ourselves (myself) with, lol.

 

[offroadr1]

as a human i am priority one, then my buddy, then everyone else. when my gf dives with me, if it came down to me or her, i would put her at the advantage in whatever way possible. hopefully ill never have to make a choice like that though.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, I think you're insight is something most of us will agree with, and the accident I describe is what makes it that way. But do remember, many great and well-respected divers are no longer with us for various reasons. Things happen.

Except, the vast majority of the well respected diver deaths, can be traced to a very significant mistake, usually in planning, and then the decisions made during the dive.
There are a very small number that were deaths by what you could call an "act of god", but even in these, there has never been a Good dive team with a good plan, that ended up needing to have one die so that one could live. That is pure Hollywood, or a horrific Stroke like Rennaker ( a guy who would actually brag about something like you describe).

 

[FuzzyNutz]

I think you left one out of the equation, sacrificing your life so that the other person may live. That one's a bit harder.

As it stands, seems pointless for two to die when one could have lived.

As for what "good divers" would actually do, I think we really would have to be in the situation to actually know what each of us would do. Thankfully, most of us are never so tasked.

Hehe, I had the sacrifice bit at first but deleted it... I was thinking that would put the situation on them, and start the process all over again, lol. I wanted to see what people would do if they couldn't be a hero. But for sure, this is definitely a possibility! I can't come to a conclusion on if I'd sacrifice and for whom, but if someone did that gesture for me, I'd at least make sure they were honorably remembered for it.

It is definitely silly for 2 people to die, but like I said, I don't think I could turn my back.

It's a tough question for sure, and who knows what we'd all really do. Like you said, thankfully none of us are so tasked!

Searcaigh, wow - that's another really crazy story. I wonder how they both feel towards each other about that. Nuts!

 

[danvolker]

It is definitely silly for 2 people to die, but like I said, I don't think I could turn my back.

It's a tough question for sure, and who knows what we'd all really do. Like you said, thankfully none of us are so tasked!

I think you will find a good number of people on this site, that have been in life and death situations, and had absolutely no thought about killing their buddy so that they could live--or running out on them--essentially the same thing.
I think there are plenty that KNOW what they would do, in a given situation....It is really pretty easy.

 

[DevonDiver]

Sorry, but I'm just pondering how this question applies to basic scuba.

(did someone just have nightmares after watching Sanctum?)

 

[FuzzyNutz]

I think you will find a good number of people on this site, that have been in life and death situations, and had absolutely no thought about killing their buddy so that they could live--or running out on them--essentially the same thing.
Think there are plenty that KNOW what they would do, in a given situation....It is really pretty easy.

Yes, but either because of bad planning or bad execution, I think it could be a possibility. Maybe these are the situations where multiple divers are found dead... who knows? At least in the little story I mentioned earlier, 2 divers were indeed in a f'd situation, so much that the one already accepted that he may die, along with his friend, who had no clue just how close they were cutting it. Fortunately, they lived. But what about the pairs that don't?

 

[DandyDon]

Oh as soon as I hit the submit thread button, I knew I'd be called out on that! haha, damn you Don! I've been thinking about exactly that, and I'm glad you asked, because now I'm sort of forced to answer (by the way, I'm slightly unclear) - then I will get critiqued and/or bashed, but I will learn from it. So bring it! (this sort of thing was one of my favorite things in my rescue course... when the instructor would give me all kinds of scenarios to think over and decide what to do in what order and why.)

First, rescue has taught me to make the preparations to avoid this situation, to plan the dive, select the appropriate gear, have adequate/ample backup gear, and make sure it's all in proper working order. I believe in the situation I described, where at least one person WILL die (not possible to leave and come back to save or resuscitate them), rescue has taught me to save myself (after, of course, exhausting all other alternatives). What rescue didn't teach me (or specifically discuss), was how to look a loved one in the eye, say good bye, and turn my back to them so they can die. I don't think this is a matter of rescue, but an instance of suicide. Would suicide be worth it to not live through life with that much guilt on your shoulders? I'm gonna go with No. ...But I still wouldn't be able to turn my back.

Good answers.

First, plan the dive to avoid life threatening events.

Second: They teach us to not become the second victim, and that's good advice - at least for their lawyers. In real life, not so easy. We like to think we would do everything possible to help the other guy, but if it boils down to 1 or 2 dying, don't become the second - but in some situations and/or for some people, I actually might. Just don't know? You do know you want to believe you really tried and couldn't before saving yourself, and then damned sure you can explain it that way. Sitting in a Honduran prison because a buddy died wouldn't be much more appealing. Coming back without a loved one - no way.

Evey now and then some ******* turns left right in front of me, or pulls out right across me - and I try to brake, maybe swerve a little if I am sure I can keep it under control - but I do have a quick decision about whether it was his fault or mine which greatly affects how much I will try to do. If his fault, I am not going to risk a rollover; if my mistake, I will.

I once saw one of my Instructors pull a bonehead: Four of us were on the dive, I was the only one who didn't know his plan, and he went down a wall out of sight. I was on 32% Nitrox and stopped at 1.6, the DM and Asst Inst/his wife stopped a bit deeper, and we waited. Nothing could have got me to go after him. I stayed with my pony bottle in case someone needed it at some time and watched, but that was about it. He hit 250 I think it was, then came back.

 

[FuzzyNutz]

Sorry, but I'm just pondering how this question applies to basic scuba.

(did someone just have nightmares after watching Sanctum?)

Well... it's sort of about scuba and it's not necessarily an advanced question... but perhaps it should be in the pub? Uhh, I dunno... I guess I'll apologize for etiquette.

And for the record (as of now at least), I never finished watching Sanctum. I dragged my friends to the theater to go see it in 3D the day it came out, and I was so bored with it, I fell asleep, hahaha. ...only movie I ever fell asleep to in a theater. But I'm thinking I should finish it one day!

Edit: At least it's not as bad as my "farting in the big bathtub thread", lmao!